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 Post subject: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:36 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:07 pm
Posts: 18
Bare in mind I have not played the system yet, so I might be trying to solve a non-existent problem - but it just popped into my head. One complaint I've read online was that combat was unbalanced in favor of smaller faster weapons since one could attack more often. The idea I had was to roll the damage die twice and use the highest result. With slower weapon having a wider range on damage, this I would think would benefit those weapons more. It might make the choice more balanced.

Thoughts?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:47 am 
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Location: Central Alberta
With the rules as written, small fast weapons are superior in many ways to slower, larger weapons. From a player perspective, you get more actions per turn of the clock, which means that you get to DO more. For example, my fiancee plays a Dagger fighter as a secondary, and I play a Flamberge-wielder as my primary. She hits every 6 ticks for d4(d8) damage (avg 28 damage/12 ticks) while I hit for d10(d8) (20 damage/12 ticks). She also get 2x the number of attack opportunities that I have, which means that the likelihood of her doing damage is greater than me. This is also good against minions who only have a single stamina and wound, so she can clear them out WAY faster than I can.

That being said, there are mitigating factors. Larger weapons have qualities such as Impact and tricks like Mighty Swing which allow you to do more damage, evening out the damage per tick (DPT) of the weapon which many of the smaller weapons lack, and the larger weapons are better at knocking their way through heavily armoured targets. Using the above examples, the dagger would do an average of 7 damage per hit, while the Flamberge would do an average of 10. That means with an enemy of AR 5, the Dagger will only get 8 damage through/12 ticks, while the Flamberge would get 10.

The bigger weapons get even more terrifying when it comes to the "Hard Core" rules which are being enforced at BI's (or, that is what PCI WANTS to do). In these rules (presented in an appendix of the Codex of Heroes) if the amount of damage taken bypasses the Fortitude Defence of the target, they take a wound. At the last BI that I was at, the only person at the table who could consistently do this was my Flamberge-wielder (and then through the use of Smite abilities and spells). In this regard, smaller weapons become significantly less likely to knock someone out for the count.

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Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
As Cody said, Armour Rating (AR) is the great equalizer. AR is very similar to Damage Resistance (DR) in 3.5/Pathfinder, in that it reduces the amount of damage taken from each hit.

My primary character uses a slow, heavy weapon. His average damage is around 20 points, which on average takes about 6 ticks to perform. Some of the people that we play with have characters that use smaller weapons/unarmed, and on average are doing about 10 points of damage per hit as a 3 tick action.

If we are fighting an enemy with no/minimal AR, they can actually out damage me simply from the number of hits. When we are up against a high AR enemy, however (such as most bosses, especially at a Battle Interactive), the faster weapons frequently have a hard time getting through the AR at all.

There are advantages to both, but I prefer the heavier weapons.

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aka Rurik of Nol Dappa - Dwarven War Priest (Divine 2.3)


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:07 pm
Posts: 18
Hey guys, thanks for the replies. It's good to know about the other factors. It's good that player to have meaningful choices rather than everyone running around with daggers. In D&D it's pretty much the opposite "I want the weapon that does the most damage."

BTW, Nierite what is BI?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
Armor ratings have to be really high for a slower weapon to out dpt a faster one. Like really high! I can't remember the math but 8 or 9+. Although weapons with armor piercing have an odd sweet spot where they gain ground on speedy weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
A BI is a Battle Interactive. They are generally only held at large conventions (Gen Con, Origins, etc). Basically think a room full of tables, all working towards the same objective.

A good example from a number of years ago was a BI involving an army seiging a city in Altheria. The heroes were trying to protect the city. Low level tables were given jobs like holding the walls and putting out fires, while the high level tables were doing reconnaissance missions behind enemy lines. If one group failed a mission, it put a direct strain on the other groups (the coordinators would actually add enemies to your table if an adjacent table wiped).

They really are a great experience. If you can get yourself to a major convention, I highly recommend it.

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Akira Currier
aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.6)
aka Leif of House Borghild - Skohir Human Myrmidon (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik of Nol Dappa - Dwarven War Priest (Divine 2.3)


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 am
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Location: Central Alberta
Well, let us assume average damage on all weapons, ignoring explosions for the moment.
Code:
       d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   6   7   8   9
d6   7   8   9   10
d8   8   9   10   11
d10   9   10   11   12
d12   10   11   12   13


Now, factor in average weapon speeds

d4 = 3 Ticks
d6 = 4 Ticks
d8 = 5 Ticks
d10 = 6 Ticks
d12 = 7 Ticks

As such, using the table above, we see DPT of the following:
Code:
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   2.00   2.33   2.67   3.00
d6   1.75   2.00   2.25   2.50
d8   1.60   1.80   2.00   2.20
d10   1.50   1.67   1.83   2.00
d12   1.43   1.57   1.71   1.86


This, of course, assumes that you are striking an target with no armour. Once you factor in AR, the numbers go this way:

For AR2

Code:
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   4   5   6   7
d6   5   6   7   8
d8   6   7   8   9
d10   7   8   9   10
d12   8   9   10   11

DPT            
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   1.33   1.67   2.00   2.33
d6   1.25   1.50   1.75   2.00
d8   1.20   1.40   1.60   1.80
d10   1.17   1.33   1.50   1.67
d12   1.14   1.29   1.43   1.57


AR4

Code:
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   2   3   4   5
d6   3   4   5   6
d8   4   5   6   7
d10   5   6   7   8
d12   6   7   8   9

DPT            
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   0.67   1.00   1.33   1.67
d6   0.75   1.00   1.25   1.50
d8   0.80   1.00   1.20   1.40
d10   0.83   1.00   1.17   1.33
d12   0.86   1.00   1.14   1.29


And AR6
Code:
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   0   1   2   3
d6   1   2   3   4
d8   2   3   4   5
d10   3   4   5   6
d12   4   5   6   7

DPT            
   d6   d8   d10   d12
d4   0.00   0.33   0.67   1.00
d6   0.25   0.50   0.75   1.00
d8   0.40   0.60   0.80   1.00
d10   0.50   0.67   0.83   1.00
d12   0.57   0.71   0.86   1.00

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
So AR 5 or 6 is the great equalizer huh?

Is your chart for exceptional weapons?


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
That assumes basic dice rolls without modifiers or explosions for simplicity of math.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
Nierite wrote:
That assumes basic dice rolls without modifiers or explosions for simplicity of math.
Do exceptional, the standard by which players are held to. Exceptional or it didn't happen.


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