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a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=321		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
wilcoxon wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
Different note, what are your thoughts on my question around TWF? If TWF is considered 2 actions, does it make sense to take separate Incidental Movement for both attacks, up to 20' (10' for both attacks)?


If I was GMing, I'd rule you could only incidental once (5' or 10') somewhere in the TWF action.


I know TWF is a bit of a 'strange beast' but it is confusing and arbitrary for TWF to be treated as 1 Action or 2 Actions, whichever is least advantageous at the time. It's treated as 2 Actions so that things like Wall of Steel are useless with it, but then it treated as 1 Action for things like Incidental Movement. It also has no explicit "Speed (Recovery)" for combining it with other maneuvers, so it makes it confusing to use. Granted, I tend to use +2 (0) for purposes of computing an Advanced Maneuver.

John
Author:  wilcoxon [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
wilcoxon wrote:
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).


It generally is a single maneuver. However, in the errata, it's defined as 2 actions. That's the confusing part.

John
Author:  wilcoxon [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
Harliquinn wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).


It generally is a single maneuver. However, in the errata, it's defined as 2 actions. That's the confusing part.

John


That is odd. I missed that in the errata. I'm sure there's a reason for the distinction but I can't see why they would call TWF 2 actions instead of 1.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
wilcoxon wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).


It generally is a single maneuver. However, in the errata, it's defined as 2 actions. That's the confusing part.

John


That is odd. I missed that in the errata. I'm sure there's a reason for the distinction but I can't see why they would call TWF 2 actions instead of 1.


One of the reasons was to prevent use with Wall of Steel and other defense actions that last "until your next action".

John
Author:  DeadZone [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
But by the same token, that make TWF work well with Reckless Swings.

So, here's the way I always thought of it... Two-Weapon fighting (without the talent) is essentially 2 actions that cannot be separated.

Two-Weapon Fighting (with the talent) is treated as two actions in order to keep consistency, but I also look at it as a single (2-action) Maneuver with a speed cost of +2 (0). As such, in my mind, you can take incidental movement once during the course of the TWF maneuver. (Mind you, this is my interpretation and not official.)

Spinning Strikes is a maneuver which improves upon the Talent version of TWF. And it explicitly allows for an additional 5' of movement between attacks, for a grand total of 15' of potential incidental movement.

If official word comes down, I'd be very interested, since my primary PC is a two-weapon fighter.

:)
Scott
Author:  Deviknyte [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
I've always ruled it as you could only add 10' of movement to the 2 actions. But incidental does say you can do before, after or during an action, so inbetween attacks shold be okay.

Another reason and the main reason that TWF and it's variants are considered 2 actions was because of damage boosters. Unbalancing Strike the action before a dual weapon attack would be devastating against a single foe. Same if you add in a smite infidel or an Avalanche rune and etc.
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