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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:38 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
Different note, what are your thoughts on my question around TWF? If TWF is considered 2 actions, does it make sense to take separate Incidental Movement for both attacks, up to 20' (10' for both attacks)?


If I was GMing, I'd rule you could only incidental once (5' or 10') somewhere in the TWF action.


I know TWF is a bit of a 'strange beast' but it is confusing and arbitrary for TWF to be treated as 1 Action or 2 Actions, whichever is least advantageous at the time. It's treated as 2 Actions so that things like Wall of Steel are useless with it, but then it treated as 1 Action for things like Incidental Movement. It also has no explicit "Speed (Recovery)" for combining it with other maneuvers, so it makes it confusing to use. Granted, I tend to use +2 (0) for purposes of computing an Advanced Maneuver.

John

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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:47 pm 

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The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).

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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:49 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).


It generally is a single maneuver. However, in the errata, it's defined as 2 actions. That's the confusing part.

John

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- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Harliquinn wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).


It generally is a single maneuver. However, in the errata, it's defined as 2 actions. That's the confusing part.

John


That is odd. I missed that in the errata. I'm sure there's a reason for the distinction but I can't see why they would call TWF 2 actions instead of 1.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:46 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
The Basic version of TWF definitely looks like a single maneuver to me. The improved maneuver (Spinning Strikes) also looks like a single maneuver to me. Therefore, the talent version of TWF seems obviously like a single maneuver to me (though I agree it would be nice to have the standard maneuver writeup treatment for it so it was clear it is +2(0) and such).


It generally is a single maneuver. However, in the errata, it's defined as 2 actions. That's the confusing part.

John


That is odd. I missed that in the errata. I'm sure there's a reason for the distinction but I can't see why they would call TWF 2 actions instead of 1.


One of the reasons was to prevent use with Wall of Steel and other defense actions that last "until your next action".

John

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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:51 pm 
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But by the same token, that make TWF work well with Reckless Swings.

So, here's the way I always thought of it... Two-Weapon fighting (without the talent) is essentially 2 actions that cannot be separated.

Two-Weapon Fighting (with the talent) is treated as two actions in order to keep consistency, but I also look at it as a single (2-action) Maneuver with a speed cost of +2 (0). As such, in my mind, you can take incidental movement once during the course of the TWF maneuver. (Mind you, this is my interpretation and not official.)

Spinning Strikes is a maneuver which improves upon the Talent version of TWF. And it explicitly allows for an additional 5' of movement between attacks, for a grand total of 15' of potential incidental movement.

If official word comes down, I'd be very interested, since my primary PC is a two-weapon fighter.

:)
Scott


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 Post subject: Re: a few mechanics questions that came up last night...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
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I've always ruled it as you could only add 10' of movement to the 2 actions. But incidental does say you can do before, after or during an action, so inbetween attacks shold be okay.

Another reason and the main reason that TWF and it's variants are considered 2 actions was because of damage boosters. Unbalancing Strike the action before a dual weapon attack would be devastating against a single foe. Same if you add in a smite infidel or an Avalanche rune and etc.


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