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 Post subject: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 5:54 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1352
Greetings,

Given that val don't breed true and can produce a human off-spring, are val ever born of 2 human parents? Non-val children are often given to vassal families, is a val ever presented from one of them to the val family? I fully expect the answer is no and they don't operate similar to dark-kin which can manifest generations later. I thought it better to confirm though before I make an errant assumption.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 7:17 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1472
Hat wrote:
Given that val don't breed true and can produce a human off-spring, are val ever born of 2 human parents? Non-val children are often given to vassal families, is a val ever presented from one of them to the val family? I fully expect the answer is no and they don't operate similar to dark-kin which can manifest generations later. I thought it better to confirm though before I make an errant assumption.


No. That's not the way it works.

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Henry Lopez
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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 10:20 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1352
PCIHenry wrote:
Hat wrote:
Given that val don't breed true and can produce a human off-spring, are val ever born of 2 human parents? Non-val children are often given to vassal families, is a val ever presented from one of them to the val family? I fully expect the answer is no and they don't operate similar to dark-kin which can manifest generations later. I thought it better to confirm though before I make an errant assumption.


No. That's not the way it works.


Thanks for the confirmation, Henry.


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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:00 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
Woo val breeding!

A long time ago I wrote a "assuming vals worked via Mendelian Genetics" musing which seems to reflect how val breeding works.

Note: I acknowledge that this model is my own theory, and both this level of detail is neither necessary for the story or takes into account wibblywobblymagic stuff. It is meant to be educational and give some fun grease for story wheels.

By a Mendelian model, the "Val Gene" (V) has to be a dominant gene, with all other humans having the recessive form (v). Whenever to people make a baby--except in rare circumstances--each parent donates 1 copy of a particular gene. If the dominant V gene is inherited, the child is a val. If no V is inherited, the child is a human (well, a non-val human, anyway). Because V is dominant, as long as one copy is inherited, the val trait is inherited.

All vals would have one of two genotypes: VV (known as homozygous dominant), or Vv (known as heterozygous). In both cases, they have at least on V so they are a val.

If you have two Vv vals breeding, however, there is a 25% chance that the child will be vv, and be human. Because this human lacks the V gene form (dominant), it is impossible for val heritage to reemerge from their line. This chance grows higher if you have a Vv val and a vv human, which means you have a 50% chance of breeding a non-val human.

Assuming they also work by Mandelian genetics (they don't seem to, but lets try!), dark-kinism would have to be a recessive gene (d) vs. Normal human (D). This is not the same gene as the Val Gene, with the val gene possibly overriding the effects of D and d.

If recessive, you only express dark-kinism if you have dd, while most humans would be DD . If you have a dark-kin breed with a normal DD human, all children are human with a genotype of Dd. If a dark-kin breeds with a Dd human, you have a 50% chance of a dark-kin from that pairing.

Now, this model is simplistic and doesn't match the story as in canon dark-kin seem to be more rare and more random than this would suggest. This would suggest that dark-kinism is controlled by multiple genes, like eye colour, to manifest.

Of course, once you add "because magic" as a reason, all of this goes out the window ;)

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
I started my current character as a val born of two human parents before this was clarified. I just ran with as his family's belief. Aside from weird magical genetics (by which we have now learned this cannot happen) and the standard human wife cheating with a val and lying about parentage, there is always the chance of a pervert val using "Alter Appearance" to appear as the husband some night (perhaps aided by alcohol) and tricking the wife, or a multitude of other much less likely magical means to accomplish it. I didn't feel a need to decide which one was the truth, since it's not like my character really knows either.

I just dealt with what would happen if two human parents had a val child they wanted to keep.

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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1472
Hello Ken,

toodeep wrote:
I just dealt with what would happen if two human parents had a val child they wanted to keep.


And this is fine.

However, besides the obvious ramifications of this, not the least of which is the Val family demanding the child be turned over to them, there are some character (mechanic) consequences.

Since he was not raised in a Val household, he (I'm assuming it's a he) never learned how to manifest (on command) and finely control his bloodline power.

Secondly, he couldn't have learned any psionic traditions*, though he could have spontaneously awaken and have psionic powers in that fashion.

*Psionic Traditions - a suite of complimentary psionic powers and abilities that are taught as a regime by the val families. Some traditions are commonly held, while some are closely guarded secrets that are known only by that particular val family.

I'm actually doing the write up for this in the Backer PDF of Codex of the Mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
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for genetic modelling purposes, its probably better to look at a 'triple gene' model, where "V" counts double for "v"

HhV = first generation val; children are born as "Hh(vv)"
Hh(vv) = subsequent generation val; "vv" dominates into virtual "V"
Hhh = human
HhD = 'first' generation dark-kin (this one is standard reproductive genetics), unlike val, its only a single expression in genetic determinations as "Hhd", but needs "dd" to convert.
Hh(dd) = dark kin

Parents: Hh(vv) + Hh(vv) = Hh(vv), Hhv, Hhv, Hhv, Hhv, Hhv, Hhv, Hhh = 12.5% Val, 75% carrier
Parents: Hh(vv) + Hhv = Hh(vv), Hh(vv), Hhv, Hhv, Hhv, Hhh = 33% Val, 50% carrier
Parents: Hhv + Hhv = Hhh, Hhv, Hhv (divine population control; cannot combine to (vv))
Parents: Hh(vv) + Hhd = Hhh, Hhd, Hhv = 33% carrier, 33% darkkin carrier (66% chance darkkin gene is deleted)
Parents: Hhd + Hhd = Hhh, Hhd, Hhd, Hh(dd) = 25% dark kin

Darkkin could eventually be bred out of the population; but the val males would need to 'first night' the entire human population for 2 generations and every child.

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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
PCIHenry wrote:
And this is fine.

However, besides the obvious ramifications of this, not the least of which is the Val family demanding the child be turned over to them, there are some character (mechanic) consequences.

Since he was not raised in a Val household, he (I'm assuming it's a he) never learned how to manifest (on command) and finely control his bloodline power.

Secondly, he couldn't have learned any psionic traditions*, though he could have spontaneously awaken and have psionic powers in that fashion.

*Psionic Traditions - a suite of complimentary psionic powers and abilities that are taught as a regime by the val families. Some traditions are commonly held, while some are closely guarded secrets that are known only by that particular val family.

I'm actually doing the write up for this in the Backer PDF of Codex of the Mind.


This, of course, was in ARG, and I wasn't clear of the exact consequences, so I had to wing it. His parents took off with him the moment they saw his eyes and worked hard to raise him "off the radar" by departing the empire to the hinterlands. This made for a hard life in his youth. Once he broke through as an "Undisciplined Psion" background he had the "Dubious Reputation" Flaw to reflect that he was not raised by the val'Borda family, but since he clearly appeared to be a val'Borda, and was manifesting val'Borda psionic (and bloodline) powers (and possibly with some background influence of an actual biological father, who knows) he was accepted into their training regime at least to make him safe for others to be around, so he would have eventually had a chance to learn heritage powers even if they can't be manifested by a wilder (which isn't clear anywhere that I know if in ARG).

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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 2102
Location: Portland OR
toodeep wrote:
This, of course, was in ARG, and I wasn't clear of the exact consequences, so I had to wing it. His parents took off with him the moment they saw his eyes and worked hard to raise him "off the radar" by departing the empire to the hinterlands. This made for a hard life in his youth. Once he broke through as an "Undisciplined Psion" background he had the "Dubious Reputation" Flaw to reflect that he was not raised by the val'Borda family, but since he clearly appeared to be a val'Borda, and was manifesting val'Borda psionic (and bloodline) powers (and possibly with some background influence of an actual biological father, who knows) he was accepted into their training regime at least to make him safe for others to be around, so he would have eventually had a chance to learn heritage powers even if they can't be manifested by a wilder (which isn't clear anywhere that I know if in ARG).
All pretty reasonable. We work off the material we have and try to make good guesses where the facts run out. You are certainly not the only Arcanis player running a character who's parents have had problems with the human/val divide. And beyond a rough outline, the "typical" psionic training regime remains a murky subject.

I confess the idea of psionic traditions causes me some discomfort. It's news to me that Heritage powers in ARP might be linked to a families curriculum rather than a family's natural affinity for certain powers. Tukufu is supposed to be essentially self taught. Perhaps benefiting from obscure texts. That may be less of an issue for him given that the special character cert he generates from, but retconning him and his power selections would be painful.

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 Post subject: Re: Val Parentage
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:33 pm 
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Posts: 985
Check Tufuku's certificate. This is already covered on Page 5 (second heading, first paragraph). :evil: :lol:

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LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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