Nierite wrote:
Also remember: Game rules cannot always reflect in-universe metaphysics. Game rules need solid "yes/no" rules, while in universe (like if this were in a novel) you could add more exceptions to the rules.
It is true that games rules do not always reflect the in-universe metaphysics. But I actually think this is pretty cut and dry. If the function of smiting is solipsistic ... I think you are a pagan/heretic so i can smite you...then the game could explicitly say so and we can move on. TMK Henry has repeatedly rejected this stance, which make me happy because "aesthetically" I
loath that idea. But occasionally I tear my hair out because the Church divisions promulgated by the campaign for the spells are not sufficiently discrete from the political statements made by various NPC authorities (who can change the laws & politics of the land but not "the celestial order"). No where has the campaign been murkier on this score than the Milandesian Orthodox Church.
Nierite wrote:
I believe an old discussion of these brought up the idea that it isn't the SPELL which makes the value judgment about who is and isn't a heretic, it is the caster. ...snip... All the spell does is give their holy rage form.
People have posited that idea. TMK its never been conformed by Henry or the campaign staff. Though I agree with most of Cody's ideas, this is one that I strongly disagree with. There were plenty of modules in the old campaign where my paladin Jaeger was stopped from smiting the *poop* out of an evil Inquisitor/priest who was involved in nefarious-to-heretiical activities. Sometimes by the judge. Sometimes by the mod. The casters perception has not been enough to smite. My experience and long standing opinion.
Nierite wrote:
Now, rules-wise, we will usually say that regardless of the character's class, if you are an active member of a church you are not subject to smites. In theory you can be a shaman who faithfully believes in the gods and made an arcane bargain with a spirit.
Can you? The Ssethric Pantheon includes Jeggal Sagg, who blurs the line between god and spirit. And he may be the child of Kassegore and Yig. I do not believe a Disciple of JS can be smote by Priests of Yig and Kassegore. BUT the PoM is a jealous bunch. Regardless of what a shaman believes I think it's very likely that THEY do not condone the worship or bargaining with spirits. They don't want THIER souls slipping away or being contaminated.
I want to be careful here. I do not want to tell other people "how to play their characters." Everyone hates that. So explicitly let me say that your character can believe whatever you want them too. But I do not think Jeggal Sag is widely regarded as part of the Milandesian Orthodox Church by either side of the human/black talon split in Milandir. I don't think a shaman of Jeggal Sag or Priestesses of the Fire Dragon would teach that. And I don't believe the human priests of the Pantheon would teach that. Mostly I think a human Milandesian would say...Jeggal who? I think a Black Talon who DID believe that Jeggal Sag was integrated into the Milandesian Church ... has ventured WAAAAY out into his or her own personal spiritual theology & territory. And faces disagreement or even possible censure from other Disciples. (I think the conversation might devolve rapidly to something like, "Don't you know that it was THIER Valinor that put Jeggal Sag in the mound?!?")
Nieirite wrote:
As such, as a general rule of thumb, shamans are often appropriate targets for Smite spells since these bargains they make fundamentally would put them into a position of falling to heresy. This is doubly true of the Pantheon of Man....
Ooopps. Never mind much of the above. Despite disagreeing on how smite spells should work, we seem to have ended up in the same head space on this issue.