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 Post subject: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:33 am 
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Can I clarify something? There is an errata on page 30 of the latest FAQ/Eratta document about Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval. It says -
The additional point of AR provided by this item is added to the final AR calculation of the Hero.

I am not sure what this means exactly, but it certainly does not seem to overrule the Stacking Bonuses rules clarified in the same errata (page 13-14) which define what stacks and what doesn't.

A player in our local group claims that the Magic Item bonus from the Greaves stacks with a Rune bonus from a Rune such as an Exceptional Defense Rune.

To me this is a no brainer. Page 14 of the Errata May 2017 document specifies that bonuses from Magic Items include Rune bonuses. Therefore the AR bonus from the Greaves doesn't stack with an AR bonus from a Rune. You benefit from the higher of the two.

These stacking rules seem intrinsic to the ARG rules system (ARG page 91). There doesn't seem any reason to me to create an exception for a single Magic Item (Greaves) and I don't think an exception has been made in the recent errata, nor do I think one should be made.

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:06 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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John,

This was discussed previously in depth, though I don't have a handy reference and I'm no one official. The AR benefit is not due to magic but to the physical protection the greaves provide. Originally there were complaints when it only got added to the armor value but not the natural armor, so for fairness they decided it would benefit all characters. Because it was from a physical property rather than the magic it's intended to get added at the end.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Sorry Paul. I didn't know it had been discussed in depth. I would still like to address this issue.

If the bonus was due to physical protection I would call it an Item bonus. In that case I would expect there would be a non-magical version of the Greaves that we could all purchase to give ourselves +1 AR. Who wouldn't want it? I think it is pretty clear that it is a Magic Item bonus.

Those lucky enough to have Greaves get the benefit of +1 AR without the need to purchase a rune for this benefit. That means that they can spend their limited rune slots on something else beneficial to them. Those characters without this item probably want to purchase a rune to provide +1 AR (if they value AR) when they have the money for it. So to give a stacking bonus for the Greaves seems not only to break the rules, but also to give an advantage to those with an item that can't be purchased (Magic Item), but is just found in a game.

That immediately seems unbalanced to me. The characters with Greaves already have their benefit - a terrific magic item that gives a +1 AR and a further benefit. To push for even more (the stacking of a Magic Item bonus with a Rune bonus) seems to break the rules.

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Hattar Tantoros di Caligo Dark-kin - Horned Templar of Cadic
Ruggiero val'Assante Val - Young Savonan Fostered Noble
Ershan Yagmir Human - Cursed Hurkomir Nomad
Turbulus Normaven Gnome - Plump Ansharan Vagabond


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Though I don't remember the discussion quoted I side with Hat on the mechanics of this one. I am also no one official. It's my understanding that the greaves are supposed to stack with everything (perhaps somewhat like the Cuirass of the Hussar in the old campaign, or the +1 bonus to hit granted by Weapon Mastery 1 in ARPG). They're a cool/powerful magic item...

I don't think they represent a physical bonus for just having greaves (and you can't buy non magical greaves to get such a bonus).

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Cuirass of the Crusader already stacks with Runes as written, so there are a few items out there.

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:44 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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deluge wrote:
Sorry Paul. I didn't know it had been discussed in depth. I would still like to address this issue.


Upon doing some searching, my memory of in depth is incorrect. It has been brought up multiple times though. The last official ruling was by Pedro and can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=427&hilit=Greaves+of+the+Scout&start=20

It was accidentally left out of the 4.3 version of the Errata.

deluge wrote:
If the bonus was due to physical protection I would call it an Item bonus. In that case I would expect there would be a non-magical version of the Greaves that we could all purchase to give ourselves +1 AR. Who wouldn't want it? I think it is pretty clear that it is a Magic Item bonus.

Those lucky enough to have Greaves get the benefit of +1 AR without the need to purchase a rune for this benefit. That means that they can spend their limited rune slots on something else beneficial to them. Those characters without this item probably want to purchase a rune to provide +1 AR (if they value AR) when they have the money for it. So to give a stacking bonus for the Greaves seems not only to break the rules, but also to give an advantage to those with an item that can't be purchased (Magic Item), but is just found in a game.

That immediately seems unbalanced to me. The characters with Greaves already have their benefit - a terrific magic item that gives a +1 AR and a further benefit. To push for even more (the stacking of a Magic Item bonus with a Rune bonus) seems to break the rules.


Can't be purchased isn't exactly correct. Greaves are typically included in some of the heavy armor as a reason why it's heavy armor rather than light or medium. Going from Lorica Squamata to Lorica Sementata is an extra 5 Gc. It's cleverly enough made that it doesn't require Armor Training in Heavy Armor. What's the value of breaking the talent curve / armor model? Equivalent to Exceptional (50x)? If so, that's 250 Gc. [NOTE: this paragraph was edited as I realized my original comment had flawed logic.]

I very much disagree with the sentiment that a single point of AR is "unbalancing". Based on Pedro's previous ruling, the simplest solution would be to call it Untyped.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:07 am 
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Thanks for finding that thread from Pedro, but I don't think it discusses stacking with Runes, just lots of other stacking. The thread is really discussing the stacking of the Greaves with the stacking of AR and NAR. Perhaps there is another thread.

I think it is unbalanced because a typical character's AR is generally not tremendously high. An extra +1 AR bonus is a big deal (and providing a strange rules justification to provide it is odd). I think adding this bonus to the (hopefully rare) list of Untyped bonuses is unnecessary. It is a Magical Item bonus because it is a bonus granted by a Magic Item.

Southernskies - The fact that Cuirass states in its source text that it stacks with AR from Runes only strengthens the argument that it shouldn't in this case since the Greaves don't state this (and I know you have a set of Greaves so you have some vested interest here).

I'm no one official either, but this seems a strange one to me. I can see nothing in the FAQ/Errata saying that the Greaves break the stacking rules and IMHO I don't think that they should. In fact I think the clarification in Red in the recent FAQ/Errata (page 14) favours the case that the Magic item bonus (which I think this clearly is) and a Rune bonus don't stack.

The argument for stacking with this item seems based on the assertion that the bonus from the Greaves is an Untyped bonus, and I can't see any reason to support this.

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Hattar Tantoros di Caligo Dark-kin - Horned Templar of Cadic
Ruggiero val'Assante Val - Young Savonan Fostered Noble
Ershan Yagmir Human - Cursed Hurkomir Nomad
Turbulus Normaven Gnome - Plump Ansharan Vagabond


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ/Eratta May 2017: Greaves of the Scout/Upheaval
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:37 am 
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While I agree that a +1 bonus to AR is sexy, it's not (imo) a bent or broken bennie.

At Tier 3 the best AR I've seen on a player is 11. (Ss'ressen (base 3 NAR) with the AR improving feat (4NAR), ss'ressen Scale (5NAR, 6 AR), Rune (+1 AR = 7), Greaves of the Scout (AR 8) & Benedictions of the Gods pumped up w/ a passive of 30 for +3 = AR 11). If you don't stack the Greaves then it's down to AR 10 ... still twice as hard as Andrean Plate. Hope you have Mighty Swing or the strength of a Gillicar if you have to fight that as a player.

Tukufu is comparably pretty squishy at AR: 3. (Plus BotG when he can find someone to cast it). If only they made Greaves of the Scholar (or Tomb Raider....)

While I disagree with your interpretation, I think you are within your rights to enforce it at tables you judge. I wouldn't have a huge issue with it as a player. At least some other judges are going to come down on the other side of the argument so make sure your players are clear at the start of tables.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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