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 Post subject: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:55 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Starting a new thread to not confuse the old proposed errata that has been shot down and this clarification of what the advanced spells rules actually mean, I have a feeling this thread will eventually converge on the old errata thread definition of advanced spell casting but it seems we have to have this discussion again.

Quote:
Advanced Spells
Advanced Spells are simply complex Spells. At any time you may attempt to combine any two Base Spells into a single Advanced spell. To form an Advanced spell, both Base Spells must share the same Source, Duration, and Area (if applicable). You may use Adaptations to alter one or both of the Base Spells, in which case the CTN is added to the Base spell(s) individually before they are combined.
The final spell then takes on the following characteristics:
• Category: Change to Advanced.
• CTN: Equal to the sum of both CTNs - 15.
• Speed & Strain: Equal to highest spell Speed and Strain cost + half of the lower Speed and Strain cost (min of +1).
• Range: Equal to the shortest Range and number of targets. Area spell Ranges are equal to the smallest Area and the shortest Range (For example, an Advanced spell built with two spells having a 15’ Cone and 20’ Area (10’ radius) would be reduced to 15’ Cone).
• Effects: The effects of both Spells are combined; if the new spell attacks two different Defenses, then a single roll is used to determine the success of the spell. If the spell fails to bypass one of the target’s Defenses, only apply the effect that successfully bypassed
the other Defense. If the spell fails to bypass either of the Defenses, the spell fails as usual. Regardless of the combined effects, when combining two damaging spells only one of your primary casting Attribute die may explode.
• Advanced Spells and Adaptations: You may add Adaptations of either Base spell to the final Advanced spell.


Ok, I see two main question lines: Line A What spells are combineable and B What happens when they are combined?

Line A
What does "Area (if applicable)" mean, in specific, how does area differ from range, does that mean you can only combine Arcs with Arcs (...etc on the other ranges)? and why does that differ from the example under range?

Line B
What does "The effects of both Spells are combined" mean? this become somewhat important for spells that bypass AR(Inflict Pain), and more important for spells that Heal (Pound of Flesh), does everything just add together and take the most advantageous rules? or is it like a one-two punch.. first I hit with this and then I hit with that?

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:56 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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If we go by the first listing for range then it's still ambiguous - can you combine a 15' Cone with a 10' Cone?

Personally, I'm all for the second range entry under combined characteristics (areas are reduced to the smallest one Radius > Arc > Cone > single target and smallest size (ex 10' Arc and 15' Cone become 10' Cone)).

Given that you can apply one spell effect if you only beat one of the (possibly) two defenses, I would say it is more of a 1-2 punch. If one spell bypasses AR, only that effect bypasses AR. If one spell heals, only that effect heals. Personally I prefer the (discarded) proposed errata method of effects combining but that doesn't fit with the rule as written.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:47 pm
Posts: 10
SamhainIA wrote:
Advanced Spells
You may use Adaptations to alter one or both of the Base Spells, in which case the CTN is added to the Base spell(s) individually before they are combined.

SamhainIA wrote:
• Advanced Spells and Adaptations: You may add Adaptations of either Base spell to the final Advanced spell.

Those two clauses from the "as is" definition in the book seem to directly contradict each other...

The Advanced Spell rules as a whole are rather confusing to me I gotta admit, though from what I've inferred from other people's comments on the boards, it doesn't seem that I'm alone here and that it's somewhat of a recurring issue?

From another thread:
PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
There was quite a LOT of discussion between the PCI Staff and we decided to leave the rule as is...

Changing the advanced spell casting rules, that much, is something that is better served in a new addition (when and if we ever get to that point) or as an update in a future product.

But, continue the discussion :o)

Nevermind changing anything, I'd be content with knowing how what's in the book, as is, is actually supposed to work. Every time I try to make an Advanced Spell I run into several things where I'm not sure how they are supposed to be handled as intended by the book.

This is probably a naive question(since I haven't been following the whole debate on the old boards that has been alluded to by some), but can't the guy(s) who wrote the section on Advanced Spells "just" clarify what he meant, complete with several example advanced spells that cover all the bases, like differing range/areas, how combined damage spells work against armor(are they a one-two punch with armor substracted from each "component" spell that hits and doesn't ignore armor? Or do they both combine into one big multi-dice damage roll that checks armor only once, or not if *both* spells ignore armor? Or...already a dozen questions there...).
I think a couple full blown examples(from base spell selections to adaptation applications from both built in and talent adaptations to the advanced spell's effect resolution against an imaginary target) would resolve most(if not all) questions at once as to how the rules are supposed to work *right now*.


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
Quote:
The Book Says:
Advanced Spells
You may use Adaptations to alter one or both of the Base Spells, in which case the CTN is added to the Base spell(s) individually before they are combined.

The Book Says:
• Advanced Spells and Adaptations: You may add Adaptations of either Base spell to the final Advanced spell.

Those two clauses from the "as is" definition in the book seem to directly contradict each other...

The Advanced Spell rules as a whole are rather confusing to me I gotta admit, though from what I've inferred from other people's comments on the boards, it doesn't seem that I'm alone here and that it's somewhat of a recurring issue?


Oh I can explain , those are two different parts of the rule, they aren't meant to be applied at the same time. You can adapt spells Before you combine them and after they combine them.

It makes sense to me as some spells have adaptations that allow you to change their area, and range, you may wish to do that before combining the spells because it could be easier to cast that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
SamhainIA wrote:
Quote:
The Book Says:
Advanced Spells
You may use Adaptations to alter one or both of the Base Spells, in which case the CTN is added to the Base spell(s) individually before they are combined.

The Book Says:
• Advanced Spells and Adaptations: You may add Adaptations of either Base spell to the final Advanced spell.

Those two clauses from the "as is" definition in the book seem to directly contradict each other...

The Advanced Spell rules as a whole are rather confusing to me I gotta admit, though from what I've inferred from other people's comments on the boards, it doesn't seem that I'm alone here and that it's somewhat of a recurring issue?


Oh I can explain , those are two different parts of the rule, they aren't meant to be applied at the same time. You can adapt spells Before you combine them and after they combine them.

It makes sense to me as some spells have adaptations that allow you to change their area, and range, you may wish to do that before combining the spells because it could be easier to cast that way.


Also duration. It is sometimes necessary to adapt one of the base spells before combining in order to match duration or area of the other spell. However, you can still apply adaptations to the combined spell as well (generally for things that enhance both spells).

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:57 am 
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My thoughts ... which are admittedly worth about 2 copper pennies:

Line A: You can combine area spells with each other, and spells that target individuals with each other. I do not believe as written you can combine a spell that targets individuals with spells that target areas as written. How you would choose the smaller area between a 15' cone (Gale force winds) and a 30' ray that targets 2 people (Elemental bolt) is ... something that makes my head hurt. Make it so you can copare apples to apples and then take the smaller values.

Line B: As written I take it as a "twin" spell effect. They both essentially go off separately but the casters action economy has improved by getting two spells off at once. Some effects I think you can only benefit from once...usually healing effects derived from various "necro" spells.

In general, when given multiple interpretations I naturally lean to the most conservative/restrictive interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:12 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
My original reading of line focused on the line "Base Spells must share the same ...Area (if applicable)"

Area is a part of range and its pretty easy to figure out, a Arc can only combine with an arc, a single target spell can only combine with a single target spell, makes sense right?

but then I got to the example of range, and that interpretation gets thrown out with the example, now in the past examples have been known to be wrong before .... right?

so we get to talking about this and it seems as if most people have been ignoring the area completely, because of "if applicable"... so my question is, is this ever applicable?

as an aside I was working on a programmatic way to determine what spells are available to combine when we first started this discussion, and if we ever finish it i might take that project back up.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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ALSO due to there being no errata issued for this spell, hex casters may rejoice, as Pound of flesh & elemental bolt are still eligible for being an advanced spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:06 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
ALSO due to there being no errata issued for this spell, hex casters may rejoice, as Pound of flesh & elemental bolt are still eligible for being an advanced spell.


Its my opinion that you get the necro healing once regardless of what it is combined with.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells clarifications
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
and that's why we are having the discussion

I'm less worried about the necro healing twice, than the Necro fireball, because that is currently totally allowed

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Harvester Lord of the Eastern Fields of Iowa


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