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 Post subject: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:47 pm
Posts: 10
Hey guys/gals, I've been making practice characters to get my head around the intricacies of character generation, advancement planning and game mechanics in one fell swoop and a couple questions arose. Any help would be much appreciated(especially on the stuff that can only be answered by the devs).

1. On a Martial val with the Undisciplined Psion background(only way for a Martial character to gain psionic capabilities during chargen right?), which grants the Spontaneously Awakened and Emotionally Empowered talents, if you want to pick up Arcane Spell Casting (Psionic) as well, do you still have to fulfill the Insight 6 additional requirement? Since Emotionally Empowered changes your casting stat to Charisma, that seems kinda...counterintuitive, since I imagine the reason for the requirement is to already have a strong aptitude toward the way the spells of your chosen arcanum are cast. Primal or Divine magic needs charisma to appeal to outer forces, Eldritch magic is mostly a logical process etc. Doesn't seem to make sense that someone who powers his spells with emotions would have to raise Insight like normal Psions.

2. The The Rage Within Fighting Style fluff specifically mentions that it was developed to help the va'Tensen to deal with their newfound rage in the aftermath of the Storm. It however does not appear to allow you to sbstitute Reluctant no more(which basically portrays the val'Tensen rage aspect as I understand it) for the Furious Rage talent. Oversight or intended?

3. I've run into a couple techs and spells which impose conditions like deafened or stunned, but no duration for these is given. The Limiting Conditions section also does not seem to specifiy generic durations. I'm probably missing something really obvious from another page here?

4. When forming an advanced spell, do you resolve its effects seperately or "fuse" them together? As an example, if you form an advanced spell from Mental Scream and Concussive Wave and manage to beat both the target's Avoidance and Discipline defenses. Do you
a) deal d6(Primary)-armor and then d(Primary) ignoring armor
b) deal d6(2*Primary) ignoring armor
c) something else entirely
Guessing it's a) since it's the most simple version(which often turns out to be right xD), but never hurts to ask.

5. Related to 4, when combining two damaging spells, do you have to choose before rolling which of your (Primary) dice can explode or do you just roll away and if both show up as max, only one of them blows up? Guessing it's the latter(again, because it's the simple option.)

6. For the spell Javelin of Lightning, do you need Weapon Training(Javelin) to make the Ranged(Thrown) attack roll without penalties and can you apply Weapon Mastery(Javelin) bonuses to the attack? Basically, how much does this the attack act like a normal javelin throw?
Bonus question: If it is indeed intended to completely emulate throwing a javelin, do you need a free hand to cast the spell, even though you normally don't for psionic spells?

7. When rounding, do you round up or down(for example for how many Contingent Spells you get)? Totally couldn't find a general rule for rounding °_°

Well, that's about what I remember running into so far. Thanks in advance for helping out!


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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
FallenAngel wrote:
1. On a Martial val with the Undisciplined Psion background(only way for a Martial character to gain psionic capabilities during chargen right?), which grants the Spontaneously Awakened and Emotionally Empowered talents, if you want to pick up Arcane Spell Casting (Psionic) as well, do you still have to fulfill the Insight 6 additional requirement?


Yes, this was brought up before the old forums died. It is basically using the rationale is that while you cast with your emotions, you need the proper amount of insight to learn NEW spells (at least via the Arcane Spellcasting talent). From a game-writers perspective, it is just easier than coming up with a bunch of exceptions to rules.

Quote:
2. The The Rage Within Fighting Style fluff specifically mentions that it was developed to help the va'Tensen to deal with their newfound rage in the aftermath of the Storm. It however does not appear to allow you to sbstitute Reluctant no more(which basically portrays the val'Tensen rage aspect as I understand it) for the Furious Rage talent. Oversight or intended?


Probably an oversight, but Reluctant No More is NOT Furious Rage. They are similar, but Reluctant No More is a bloodline talent which improves upon Furious Rage rather than being completely equivalent. Also, if you look at the fluff of the two talents RNM basically already states that the val'Tensen has mastered their Rage, while that is the whole point of the Fighting Style.

Quote:
3. I've run into a couple techs and spells which impose conditions like deafened or stunned, but no duration for these is given. The Limiting Conditions section also does not seem to specifiy generic durations. I'm probably missing something really obvious from another page here?


If it doesn't say, I would assume the duration is "Scene". Ultimately, I think it would normally fall under the "whatever is appropriate for your needs," but I always assume Scene unless it says otherwise.

Quote:
4. When forming an advanced spell, do you resolve its effects seperately or "fuse" them together? As an example, if you form an advanced spell from Mental Scream and Concussive Wave and manage to beat both the target's Avoidance and Discipline defenses. Do you
a) deal d6(Primary)-armor and then d(Primary) ignoring armor
b) deal d6(2*Primary) ignoring armor
c) something else entirely
Guessing it's a) since it's the most simple version(which often turns out to be right xD), but never hurts to ask.


Advanced Spells were pretty heavily errata'd on the last forums, and I cannot remember all that Pedro did to change them. As we've been waiting for an updated errata document for a LONG time now, I'll reserve further comment until I can find my notes on what was changed.

Quote:
5. Related to 4, when combining two damaging spells, do you have to choose before rolling which of your (Primary) dice can explode or do you just roll away and if both show up as max, only one of them blows up? Guessing it's the latter(again, because it's the simple option.)


Yes, you always have to state what is your (Primary) exploding dice.

Quote:
6. For the spell Javelin of Lightning, do you need Weapon Training(Javelin) to make the Ranged(Thrown) attack roll without penalties and can you apply Weapon Mastery(Javelin) bonuses to the attack? Basically, how much does this the attack act like a normal javelin throw?
Bonus question: If it is indeed intended to completely emulate throwing a javelin, do you need a free hand to cast the spell, even though you normally don't for psionic spells?


You do not need Weapon Training to use a weapon, you need it to gain access to Weapon Tricks. I'd rule you'd need a free hand since you use Ranged (thrown), and I'd argue that you could use Weapon mastery on it.

Quote:
7. When rounding, do you round up or down(for example for how many Contingent Spells you get)? Totally couldn't find a general rule for rounding °_°


My rule of thumb is always round down, but I think that Pedro once said the opposite.

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
Quote:
Quote:
7. When rounding, do you round up or down(for example for how many Contingent Spells you get)? Totally couldn't find a general rule for rounding °_°

My rule of thumb is always round down, but I think that Pedro once said the opposite.


Ha! unless specified rounding means well "rounding" and that is "if its .5 or greater you round up"


Quote:
Quote:
6. For the spell Javelin of Lightning, do you need Weapon Training(Javelin) to make the Ranged(Thrown) attack roll without penalties and can you apply Weapon Mastery(Javelin) bonuses to the attack? Basically, how much does this the attack act like a normal javelin throw?
Bonus question: If it is indeed intended to completely emulate throwing a javelin, do you need a free hand to cast the spell, even though you normally don't for psionic spells?

You do not need Weapon Training to use a weapon, you need it to gain access to Weapon Tricks. I'd rule you'd need a free hand since you use Ranged (thrown), and I'd argue that you could use Weapon mastery on it.


Its really important that this spell says "just like a regular javelin" and allows you to perform maneuvers as if it was a javelin. if it was intended to be like any other prionic attack spell it would use the same rules for those attack spells and not use ranged thrown.

answers to 4&5 and anything related to advanced spells is really waiting for the updated errata.

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Oswald val'Inares V, The Seeker of the Val'Inares
Harvester Lord of the Eastern Fields of Iowa


Last edited by SamhainIA on Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
7) I'm pretty sure I remember seeing round down (or possibly round against the player) somewhere (possibly on the old forums).

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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:47 pm
Posts: 10
Nierite wrote:
Yes, this was brought up before the old forums died. It is basically using the rationale is that while you cast with your emotions, you need the proper amount of insight to learn NEW spells (at least via the Arcane Spellcasting talent). From a game-writers perspective, it is just easier than coming up with a bunch of exceptions to rules.

Makes sense. I'll have to shift a couple points around on that character then. *cringes*
Nierite wrote:
Probably an oversight, but Reluctant No More is NOT Furious Rage. They are similar, but Reluctant No More is a bloodline talent which improves upon Furious Rage rather than being completely equivalent. Also, if you look at the fluff of the two talents RNM basically already states that the val'Tensen has mastered their Rage, while that is the whole point of the Fighting Style.

True, the val "version" already allows for more control(can use stances and bloodline talents, can attempt to stop raging to defend innocents via Relucant Warrior) and more uses(given a high enough bloodrank) all in one talent by itself, compared to just Furious Rage on its own. The bonuses The Rage Within grants to Furious Rage(lowering/negating avoidance penalty, Maertial Techniques etc.) are still nice though...guess it's a choice of spending one talent on raging, or spending a whole boatload on it.
Nierite wrote:
If it doesn't say, I would assume the duration is "Scene". Ultimately, I think it would normally fall under the "whatever is appropriate for your needs," but I always assume Scene unless it says otherwise.

Huh, interesting. That would make some techs/spells quite powerful.
Nierite wrote:
Advanced Spells were pretty heavily errata'd on the last forums, and I cannot remember all that Pedro did to change them. As we've been waiting for an updated errata document for a LONG time now, I'll reserve further comment until I can find my notes on what was changed.

Gonna wait for that then.
Nierite wrote:
Yes, you always have to state what is your (Primary) exploding dice.

Alright, thx =)
Nierite wrote:
You do not need Weapon Training to use a weapon, you need it to gain access to Weapon Tricks. I'd rule you'd need a free hand since you use Ranged (thrown), and I'd argue that you could use Weapon mastery on it.

SamhainIA wrote:
Its really important that this spell says "just like a regular javelin" and allows you to perform maneuvers as if it was a javelin. if it was intended to be like any other prionic attack spell it would use the same rules for those attack spells and not use ranged thrown.

For some reason I thought you needed Weapon Training in a weapon to not suffer a penalty when using it, but I see I was mixing that up with defaulting to the highest known melee skill-5 when using a weapon you don't have a skill for. Oops.
I figured treating it as a "real" javelin throw, complete with required free hand, Weapon Talent(if you want the Tricks) and Mastery(if you want the bonuses) would be best. A spell for the Martial caster, so to speak xD
Nierite wrote:
My rule of thumb is always round down, but I think that Pedro once said the opposite.

SamhainIA wrote:
Ha! unless specified rounding means well "rounding" and that is "if its .5 or greater you round up"

wilcoxon wrote:
7) I'm pretty sure I remember seeing round down (or possibly round against the player) somewhere (possibly on the old forums).


Conflicting opinions I see °_°
Thx for taking the time to help me out guys!


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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm
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It is round to nearest. I asked Pete to put it in the FAQ. And yes, that is the customary .5 rounds up.


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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
In my scientific statistical analysis classes we were taught to always round to the nearest number, and in the case of the halfway point (0.5) to round to the nearest even number. Thus both 3.5 and 4.5 round to 4. This allows a statistical evening that in half the cases you are rounding up, and in half the cases you are rounding down, allowing for an averaging of the effect....

That said, it seems to me that it should always be rounding up, or things that do half will have no effect at tier 1, and no advantage to tier 5 vs 4.

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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:48 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:47 pm
Posts: 10
Yeah, I'm pretty sure when Eric refers to customary rounding, he meant the highschool version, not the scientific statistical analysis version :)
As you pointed out, it tends to make for a smoother progression as well(for example 1 Contingent Spell at T1, 2 at T3 and 3 at T5).

Got another question about something from the talent section. The part about talent benefits has the following to say:
Quote:
Stacking Bonus: Unless otherwise noted under the Talents’s description, static bonuses (+1 to a skill for example) granted by Talents do not stack with each other. The higher of the two bonuses always takes precedence.

So if +X to Y benefits from talents(i.e. same source) to the same value do not stack, am I reading this right that, for example a character with Weapon Mastery Tier IV[+1 to hit (errata'd to specifically stack with other talent bonuses), +2 damage] gains only an effective +1 to hit from Wolfpack Tactics(+1 to hit and +1 damage against enemies already engaged by allies) and then nothing if he later takes Advanced Tactics(+2 damage against enemies already engaged by allies)?

For that matter, if you have Wolfpack Tactics and then take Advanced Tactics(which not only has the former as a prereq, but also much more stringent attribute requirements), you only get an effective +1 damage over simply having Wolfpack on its own?


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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Things that do not stack:

Die bumps from the same source
Static bonus' (ie: +X) from the same source
+dies (ie: +1d6) from the same source

Sources: Talents, Runes, Spell effects, Item quality, Other (I'm sure I'm missing one)

For example: If you have a Sword with both a Fine Quality Sanctified Rune and a Fine Quality Fire rune, they both grant a +1 to damage. However, since they are both static bonus' and from the same source (runes), you would only get a +1 bonus (one or the other) rather than a +2 bonus. Similarly, if you were to have, say, a Legendary Fire Rune (from the val'Virdan Bloodline) and a Fine Sanctified Rune, you would get a +3 from the Fire rune, but not the Sanctified. The only benefit for having two runes which add static bonus' would be to activate them for specific enemies, such as those who have a weakness vs. a specific element/blessed weapons, etc.

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Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
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 Post subject: Re: Bunch of questions from a newbie
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:47 pm
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All of these talents provide static bonuses(i.e. +X to value Y, such as +1 to hit) from the same source(they are all talents). By the given definition, none of them should stack(except for the explicitely noted to be stackable +1 to hit part from Weapon Mastery).

Thing is, that would make Wolfpack Tactics and (especially) Advanced Tactics somewhat underwhelming picks. Hence my question: This is how the rules say it works, but is that working as intended?


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