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 Post subject: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:18 pm 

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I assume the stacking issue goes by the wayside when you combine two spells/maneuvers, correct? Since it makes it a single spell/maneuver? So a might swing/overpower advance maneuver would do weapon +15 damage, right?

(edit: just realized this doesn't work anyways since overpower is already advanced, but the question still stands - say the combination of vital strike and double stab, where both are adding the damage of an additional weapon die)

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Last edited by toodeep on Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Like bonuses from the same source (in this case, Martial Techniques/Weapon Tricks) do NOT stack. As such, a +5 and a +10 bonus means you get a +10 bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:09 pm 

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Nierite wrote:
Like bonuses from the same source (in this case, Martial Techniques/Weapon Tricks) do NOT stack. As such, a +5 and a +10 bonus means you get a +10 bonus.


Wait, so an advanced spell of elemental bolt and biting frost (or any other spell that does a die of damage) don't stack into 2d8_(primary) of damage? So combining damaging spells to make an advanced spell is worthless because they don't stack? That isn't what it looks like in the errata, but that is what I infer would be parallel rulings between spells and maneuvers.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:42 pm 
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In general, correct. There were a few loopholes originally that got tightened up.

For Elemental Bolt + Biting Frost, you get a slower Biting Frost that does D8 (Primary). They are effectively the same spell (but Biting Frost has a -1 CTN for the same base damage).

It gets a lot messier once the bonus types start getting checked.

Advanced spells benefit best when combining two dis-similar effects. ie. Heat Wave + Gale Force Winds or Body of the Warrior + Inertial Shield.
Elemental Bolt + Force Push would be a good example (low CTN, damage and movement effect).

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:46 pm 

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Southernskies wrote:
In general, correct. There were a few loopholes originally that got tightened up.

For Elemental Bolt + Biting Frost, you get a slower Biting Frost that does D8 (Primary). They are effectively the same spell (but Biting Frost has a -1 CTN for the same base damage).

It gets a lot messier once the bonus types start getting checked.

Advanced spells benefit best when combining two dis-similar effects. ie. Heat Wave + Gale Force Winds or Body of the Warrior + Inertial Shield.
Elemental Bolt + Force Push would be a good example (low CTN, damage and movement effect).


I don't think that I've ever seen it applied that way. You lose some damage according to the rules because two spells that both do d6+(primary) combined only do d6+d6+(primary), so there is some damage loss compared to direct combining, but there is supposed to be some damage gain (I thought).

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:59 pm 
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You're right. The base damage die do get added; but its an inefficient use of an Advanced spell.

For the +6 CTN, you can already get two die bumps to the base die.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:12 pm 

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Southernskies wrote:
You're right. The base damage die do get added; but its an inefficient use of an Advanced spell.

For the +6 CTN, you can already get two die bumps to the base die.


right, the base damage dice do get added, so there is some "stacking"

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:06 pm 
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::sigh::

somewhere on the forum is an old thread that ruled that Martial Techniques DO stack with each other. Pedro was at the heart of the ruling. At the time we were debating wether or not you could combine Mighty Swing with Powerful Thrust when Codex of Heroes came out. I remember because I was arguing the other side before it became settled.

I certainly do not mind the change mechanics...but I worry that something as fundamental as stacking can change with changes in campaign staff. Can we please get this ruling stickied somewhere where anyone can point to it?

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:35 am 
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Don't forget that there were some changes to the stacking rules ~v3.0 Errata
It messed up quite a few older rulings.

Here's the informal ruling from 2013 that Pedro agreed with:
viewtopic.php?p=3711#p3711

The current errata does say "combined" not "stacked", but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a Threat that uses it. That's some big +'s to the damage.

ie: (Mighty Swing +5, Powerful Thrust +6), Powerful Attack +5 (+10)
That's +21 damage at T.III without even trying; likely 1d12(2d6)+21 which is an auto wound to most PCs.

Never had to really look at it, as I haven't run a 'big hitter' build yet.

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 Post subject: Re: advanced spell/maneuver stacking question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:25 am 

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I would hope that traits and maneuvers wouldn't be combined like that. I thought the powerful attack trait was more designed for unthinking/animal intelligence type creatures that are uniquely skilled in an specific form of attack, vs. maneuvers for thinking creatures like fire giants. They really shouldn't both be applied...

Though that doesn't mean they won't be by some. :)

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