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 Post subject: The Wilder Path and Spells
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:40 pm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Wilder Path seems a strange one. It seems like a fun role-playing idea, but certainly not a great way to play a versatile Psionic character.

The main limitation that I see is the lack of access to Arcanum Talents, particularly Learn Spell. You have to start with Spontaneously Awakened which is an extremely Limited Talent [access from Undisciplined Psion (b) or Spontaneously Awakened Psion (p)]. For this you get one spell. Then you get one more spell (of the same tradition) as a Novice Wilder and a third as a Master Wilder.

If you have entered this Path as an Undisciplined Psion (to get the Spontaneously Awakened Talent) then you get the Emotionally Empowered Talent from this Background, which you also get as a Wilder Novice and it is not a Tiered Talent. So this seems to be a less than ideal direction. If you have entered the Path by taking the Spontaneously Awakened Psion Path then you will be Tier II before taking the Wilder Path.

The Special (Once on the Path) aspect of the Wilder Path prevents you from ever learning Arcane Spell Casting which is required to access Arcanum Talents and therefore Learn Spell. It makes me wonder if the Wilder Path is intended to have access to Arcanum Talents.

In theory you might somewhat circumvent the restriction by taking something like the Templar Background which gives access to Devout Talents (including Learn Spell), but this seems like a flavourless way to get access to Learn Spell and probably shouldn't be allowed. And even then the Learn Spell from access to Devout Talents is really intended (IMHO) to provide access to additional Divine Spells, but there is no restriction on it to prevent you from getting access to Arcane (Psionic) Spells.

I see Wilder has been discussed before on these forums, and I'm interested in the views of other people.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wilder Path and Spells
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:43 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Like you I've looked at Wilder builds and didn't see anything I liked. My opinion is that imechanically it's half baked. There is no errata for it. I don't know anyone who plays one.

Then again I don't know anyone who is yearning to play one either.

Obviously the Wilder path derives from the Wilder class in the 3rd edition days. The core feature then was reduced spells/versatility from the psion base in exchange for the chance to hit harder. I was not a taker then. And the trade off here seems much much worse. I did not see a lot of PC Wilders back in the day.

I believe as written you could take the ASC talent AFTER you take you take the first level of the Wilder path. Assuming you qualify (have Prestidigitation....have access to the Talent, etc). The builds I experimented with did this. Still, a complicated kludgy procedure. I didn't like any of the things I came up with.

You are right. As written, you can't take learn spell for this class which seems weird (unless you get ASC)

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 Post subject: Re: The Wilder Path and Spells
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:37 am 

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I am really confused....what are you guys reading that states you cannot take arcanum talents or Learn Spell with Wilder? You just can't have (or take after) Arcane Spell Casting and Divine Spell Casting. You can take any other Arcanum Talents that you qualify for, including Learn Spell (which only requires the ability to cast spells)

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 Post subject: Re: The Wilder Path and Spells
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Page 136 of CoH says (under Novice) -
"Requirements: Spontaneously Awakened (ta); may not have either Arcane Spell Casting (ta) or Divine Spell Casting (ta)"

and further down -
"Special (Once on the Path): Starting down the path of the Wilder in one of complete dedication. As such you may never learn or otherwise acquire the Arcane Spell Casting or Divine Spell Casting Talents."

To me this means that you can't have ASC when you start the Path and then with the Special part, you can never take ASC after starting the Path.

Since Learn Spell is both an Arcanum Talent and a Devout Talent, you are ineligible to take it unless you find a Background or Path that gives you access to the Talents (Arcanum or Devout) without giving you ASC or DSC.

As well as the requirement of "the ability to cast spells", Learn Spell is an Arcanum and Devout Talent. In the talent Types section on page 170 of the ARG, the text says that the ability to take Devout and Arcanum Talents is restricted to those knowing the DSC or ASC Talents.

I'd love it if Wilders could take Arcanum Talents (or at least Learn Spell). Perhaps that was how it was intended.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wilder Path and Spells
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:20 pm 
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mighty28 wrote:
I am really confused....what are you guys reading that states you cannot take arcanum talents or Learn Spell with Wilder? You just can't have (or take after) Arcane Spell Casting and Divine Spell Casting. You can take any other Arcanum Talents that you qualify for, including Learn Spell (which only requires the ability to cast spells)


Hi Matt. Kind of a corner case. By definition you can't be a wilder if you are arcane (or divine) so you don't start with access to take arcane talents at character creation. You need to get access.

A:RPG pg 70 wrote:
You may learn Arcanum Talents once you have acquired the Arcane Spell Casting Talent.


Spontaneously Awakened (like Rudimentary X) only grants access to ASC. Not the other arcane talents. So Wilder banning you from ASC, as I read it, effectively bans you from ANY arcane talents (like Learn Spell) unless you gain access another way. You are kinda screwed...

Perhaps Wilder should grant access. I certainly wouldn't argue against errata.

(as an aside-I missed that Wilder bans you from ever getting ASC in the bottom restriction. That invalidates the old work around I tried to use back when I was experimenting by taking ASC after Journeyman).

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 Post subject: Re: The Wilder Path and Spells
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:40 am 

Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 6:46 am
Posts: 85
I play a Wilder... and now I'm realizing my build is illegal if I can't take Learn Spell outside of the Path itself.

As for its purpose... it's not really a versatile caster. I went into it as an Undisciplined Psion Expert, and its role in my build is just to give me a few tricks up my sleeve. I missed the part about needing ASC though, so I have a few spells I shouldn't.

I guess an easy errata for the Wilder would be to allow it to count as having ASC for the purposes of prereqs.


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