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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Hi Matt.

If that's where we want to go that's cool. (And I'll get onboard behind the ruling). But I don't think that's where we were.

The last time this issue reared its head (iirc) was when someone wanted to take Perfect Cut and bypass the requirement that you be Tier IV (through Archetype.) That was shot down (as were any any attempt to dodge racial requirements). But otherwise things were left open ... So for example a knight errant could use Any Combat Talent to pick up MT: Sweeping Strike regardless of their Might as I recall.

It's an issue I've always paid close attention to.

My crusade character Eisener used the learn a martial technique in the (martial) archetype to pick up Sweeping Strike (though he didn't meet the might requirement). Somewhere waaay back in time that was specifically hashed out and was declared legal at the time. Though I fear it was on the old forums that crashed.

My memory is less clear on paths but I think the same logic played all the way through.

I know of at least a couple of characters that would have to go back and re-edit with this ruling. The talent most often aquired IME is sweeping strike, but I also know of a couple of archers who use the martial archetype to get MT: Rapid Shot at creation.

Just an FYI that I think this is a change from the status quo and that there are players out there who will be impacted.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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If applied to Archetypes, this is definitely a change to past rulings (and the errata). I'm less sure on Backgrounds (and even less sure on Paths).

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:36 pm 
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Hi Matt,

That change would invalidate close to 50% of Martial's and 75% of Expert's (who both make heavy use of that exemption in the Archetype talent choice).

It comes up less often in Background and Path, but those with choices and the exemption rule is there for a reason.

Just clarifying Tier and logical limitations (Limited and Racial) is enough to reign in potential abuses.

LMT and Bloodlines have been reigned in so much (due to being pseudo-Tiered) that it may push up the number of Arcane archetypes who can exceed some of these Talent choices using spell combinations (for less cost) and some of the more abusive Talents have been errata'd individually.

The most number of exempt talents is 8 (2 from Expert, 1 from Background, 5 from Path's) but in practice is much lower than that as there are only 5 Path's that get to choose their Talents (2 also have a short-list of Talents).

Kio Duelist (Keeper of the High Blade); LMT
Knight Errant; Any Combat Talent
Majestic Hunter of the Order of st. Tancred; Weapon Mastery: (Any)
Sword Sage (Master); LMT
Knowledge Warden (Master); choose 1 from list of 3.
Seasoned Veteran; LMT
War Mage; choose 1 from list of 2.

Martial/Former Slave/Seasoned Veteran/Sword Sage II (Master) seems to be the most I can generate (at Tier 3); 3 LMT + 1 Skill Talent.
or
Expert/Former Slave/Seasoned Veteran/Sword Sage II; 3 skill talents + 2 LMT.

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LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 4
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


Last edited by Southernskies on Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:21 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hi Matt

What you have proposed in your post here is what I was talking about. I think it makes sense.

I don't have access to the details of when this last was discussed. And while I think it is frustrating to have the clarification cause players to have to change the characters they have been made, I think the rule is fair and holds true to the purpose of the Requirements (which had been overlooked).

Southernskies (who I game with) suggests that 50% or Martial builds and 75% of Expert builds will be invalidated. I would expect the number of players affected by this to be a smaller number. It will, as he says, impact most on Martial and Expert builds because they are the main builds with access to chosen Talents and Martial Techniques. Most will have to choose a different Talent or Martial Technique.

I don't think that the number of exempt Talents involved here is the problem. I think that an unclear rule has been used to overlook the Requirements necessary to access Talents and by extension Martial Techniques. I cannot think of a reason why these Requirements should be overlooked. They were written into the rules to provide flavour and context for the Talents and Martial Techniques.

The difference here is between specifically listed Talents and chosen Talents.

PS - Unfortunately I have a character who will be affected by this also. He is planning to take the Yhing Hir Horse Lord Path which is broken by the fact that a qualifier for a Talent to take the path (Animal Affinity) is provided by the path as a Talent (so you get nothing). I had taken Loyal Companion as a chosen Skill Talent for the Expert Archetype without the Requirement for Animal Affinity. I guess I'll change Loyal Companion to Animal Affinity and take Loyal Companion further down the track as an advancement. I hope Yhing Hir Horse Lord gets fixed soon (someone suggested Born to the Saddle to replace Animal affinity). But that's another story for another Topic on the Forums.

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Ruggiero val'Assante Val - Young Savonan Fostered Noble
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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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deluge wrote:
Southernskies (who I game with) suggests that 50% or Martial builds and 75% of Expert builds will be invalidated. I would expect the number of players affected by this to be a smaller number. It will, as he says, impact most on Martial and Expert builds because they are the main builds with access to chosen Talents and Martial Techniques. Most will have to choose a different Talent or Martial Technique.


Actually, I think the percentages may be even higher. Many Martials take Sweeping Strikes and many Experts take Quick (there are certainly others taken where requirements are not met but those seem to be the most common).

deluge wrote:
I don't think that the number of exempt Talents involved here is the problem. I think that an unclear rule has been used to overlook the Requirements necessary to access Talents and by extension Martial Techniques. I cannot think of a reason why these Requirements should be overlooked. They were written into the rules to provide flavour and context for the Talents and Martial Techniques.


I completely disagree. The rule was explicitly clarified (for Archetypes) in the Errata. It very clearly allows ignoring requirements for chosen Talents (specifically named Talents always ignore all requirements). Given that it was specifically clarified to allow choosing things regardless of most requirements (for Archetype), I strongly feel it would be a very bad idea to reverse that now.

I have much less of an opinion on Backgrounds and Paths.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
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Location: Portland OR
Just realized this ruling also mucks with spell casting Experts who fake Presti to in Archtypes. That does affect Tukufu ... and reopens another area that has already been discussed and ruled upon.

Normally I am very happy with a more restrictive interpretation of the rules. I'm usually conservative in my interpretations.

But I dislike reversing several previous rulings for a "quick answer." A non-trivial portion of PCs have taken archetype options to take MT Sweeping Strike or Rapid Reload, or Quick or Presti. After the issues had been hashed out in old threads. I'm not looking forward to carring the water on this one and telling players in Portland the campaign has changed its mind and they may have to rebuild.

I do not believe this is an over looked topic.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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I just remembered a critical piece of the rationale for Archetype ignoring all prereqs (except tier, race, and limited). Nobody can qualify for (almost) any Talents with skill or Talent prereqs when you choose Archetype Talents - you haven't gotten any skills or Talents except those granted by Archetype. That means even a Martial with Might 6 does not qualify for Sweeping Strike - the only Martial Technique a Martial could qualify for (without ignoring prereqs) is Wall of Steel (every other Martial Technique requires at least 3 ranks in a skill). Similarly an Expert could not possibly qualify for Prestidigitation (because it requires 3 ranks in a Lore skill).

Either Archetype must ignore prereqs for Talents or the entire character generation process around Archetypes has to be rewritten.

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:06 am 
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That is a fair point Steve.

The Archetype Talent choice timing is such that the character has not yet assigned skills and attributes for requirements. As you say this is probably why the errata was written as it was in the first place.

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John Deague

Hattar Tantoros di Caligo Dark-kin - Horned Templar of Cadic
Ruggiero val'Assante Val - Young Savonan Fostered Noble
Ershan Yagmir Human - Cursed Hurkomir Nomad
Turbulus Normaven Gnome - Plump Ansharan Vagabond


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:28 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
Posts: 484
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Hello all,
Let me address a couple of things...
First, starting with the issue at hand...if You noticed, I said my original post was a quick answer. Through the years, we have had many, many discussions and rulings on a variety of topics, including this one. As best as memory serves, pre-errata, all Talent selection.was delayed until Step 9 of character creation, which specifically states you must meet the pre-reqs. (Which would give you the chance to meet thr pre-reds...like 3 ranks in a Lore skill for Prestidigitatiom) However, this was confusing to some based on wording/timing or whatnot and the errata was made. So, my quick ruling was based on that memory and I did not double check the errata.

So, to clarify...based upon the errata, Archetypes would get to ignore pre-reqs for a "choose any". For Bacgrounds and Paths, my original post stands. Yes, I know what the Talent chapter in ARG says. But as we have written more material and Background/Path options, we made some generalized ones to allow players more freedom and individuality. This, unfortunately, has opened the door to abuse. My ruling closes that door. A specifically named Talent is fine (regardless of pre-reqs), "pick" ones are not.

I also realizes this creates a "why X, but not Y and Z" conundrum, which can be annoying. The best answer I can give to that is because right now it needs to be that way because otherwise, pre-reqs would only matter for a handful of Talents over the course of a Heroes career. Like any other game, several issues have risen to the surface with ARG in the 6 or so years it has been out. This is one of them that would need to be rectified in a second edition.

Second issue: someone brought up the issue that some Backgrounds/Paths state things like "choose any X Talent" vs. "choose any X Talent that you meet the requirements for". Although it should be covered by the ruling, these should be treated as synonymous. Different contributors phrase things in different ways. Some write with brevity and simplicity in mind, others add in more verbiage for specificity. It was never the intention to create a back door to Talents. Please remember that unless rules specifically say you can, than you can't. (Not "the rules don't say I can't so I can".). In the future, if we intend for a general pick to ignore pre-reqs, we will need to specifically say so.

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Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:47 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Okay. I still think we may have grumpy players but, that is pretty clear & "explainable." Thanks for circling back around for a longer take on this Matt.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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