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 Post subject: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:50 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
I have a question about the Requirements for Talents. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before.

In the ARG it says that you must meet all requirements, except when the Talent is acquired through an Archetype, Background or Path. This makes sense for all sorts of reasons, but some Archetypes, Backgrounds and Paths have the opportunity to choose a non-specific Skill Talent or Combat Skill or Martial Technique (which could also be chosen as a Combat talent).

Under the Learn Martial Technique Talent, the requirements are given as - Weapon Training (any) (ta), additional requirements as listed under the individual technique - so if we exclude these then there is no need to meet the additional requirements as listed under the individual technique.

I learnt at a recent game that this meant that a player gave a character Sweeping Strike despite not having Might 6 since he gained the Learn Martial Technique Talent from the Martial Archetype.

My feeling is that the Talent requirement exclusion is to allow specific Talents to be given by the Archetype, Background or Path regardless of requirements. Not so much to allow chosen Talents to ignore requirements. And to me it is going one step even further down a murky route to choose for a character a Martial Technique that the character does not have the requirements for.

Do you think this is a fair use of the rules?

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John Deague

Hattar Tantoros di Caligo Dark-kin Templar of Cadic
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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:27 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
It is clarified in Errata v4.3...

Choose your Hero's Archetype, change the 2nd paragraph as follows: wrote:
From your Archetype you will gain one rank in all Trained skills gained under its heading. It will also provide you with starting weapon and armor proficiency Talents, as well as additional Talent(s) based upon which Archetype you choose, regardless of requirements with the exception of limited Talents, Talents above Tier I, and racial limitations. Lastly it will give you access to Additional Advancement Options above and beyond the general Advancement Options available to all characters.


So, yes, taking Sweeping Strike without Might 6 is perfectly valid for a Martial or taking Quick without meeting the Quickness requirement is perfectly valid for Expert.

For Paths and Backgrounds, I'm pretty sure that you must meet all requirements unless granted a specific Talent.

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:32 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
No, Paths are the same. (This argument pops up periodically.)

This is why some backgrounds or paths say "any talent (or martial technique) that you meet the requirements for." Other just say something like "any combat talent." The later is what it says...any combat talent.

The one requirement you can't wiggle out of is a tier requirement. So for example you can't take the Tier IV talent the Perfect Cut at Tier 1.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
No, Paths are the same. (This argument pops up periodically.)


Interesting. So why does the errata only clarify that for Archetypes (with no mention of Paths or Backgrounds)?

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:57 pm 
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Iirc the argument that spawned that round of errata was about what the Archtypes granted.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Hopefully someone official will comment in this thread. My reading, given the explicit clarification for Archetype and complete lack of mention of Paths (or Backgrounds), is that you must meet requirements for "choice" talents in Paths/Backgrounds (but specifically named ones are certainly granted without regard for requirements).

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:56 pm 
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It was clarified for Archetype due to complexity issues, as Background/Path is simpler to deal with (most issues at that point are related to ASC/DSC).
There are some minor wording issues for Background/Path that may be needed in the next edition (Limited/Racial talents mostly) along the lines of:
Code:
"When presented with the choice of 'Any x talent' during Archetype, Background or Path, the talent cannot be Limited to you at that creation step and must be of your Tier or lower.  Talents specifically named are not affected."

The last discussion petered out.

It is possible get a Tiered talent 3 times by T1.2 (Archetype-> Background -> Path) but only if the Background and Path are granting specific talents.
ie. Martial (Leadership I), Former Tribune (Leadership II), Centurion (Leadership III).
You can't *use* it until the relevant tier but there can be long term advantages to doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:20 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ok, so I've seen the errata regarding Archetypes. It is an errata to page 92 of the ARG. This is not the paragraph that I was questioning, but thanks for pointing it out.

The Requirements paragraph that I am trying to understand (and discuss) is on page 170 of the ARG.

I think the core of my question is to what degree requirements can be ignored. From the paragraph on page 170, it seems that all requirements can be ignored for Talents provided by Archetypes, Backgrounds and Paths. While I think that some flexibility at character creation might be a good thing, it seems strange that this flexibility extends to Paths.

Also, I can't help but feel that the intent was to ensure that a character is not excluded from any of the Talents provided by the Archetype, Background or Path, not to provide a requirement free environment for the Talents that you choose (as with Elder Sorcerer's Apprentice on page 126 ARG) any one Combat Talent or (as with Former Secret Policeman on page 128 ARG) any one Skill Talent. For these open choices, it seems to me to undermine the Requirement system to make these choices free of Requirements.

Even more so for the Paths. For example with Knight Errant (ARG p287), you can choose any Combat Talent. Should this choice be exempt from Requirements? It is not a choice between two Talents. It is an open choice of Talents.

And Martial Techniques are a seperate category again aren't they? To get one you must select the Talent, Learn Martial Technique, but Martial Techniques are not exactly part of the Talent system. So should the paragraph from p170 ARG apply? I don't think so. Martial Techniques typically have a requirement of a number of ranks in a melee or ranged skill. But some have Talent requirements and Attribute requirements. I don't think these should be ignored just because the Learn Martial Technique comes from an Archetype, Background or Path. (Sweeping Strike with low Might) (Spinning Strikes without Two-Weapon Fighting)

The Paths, Kio Duelist, Aspirant Knight, Sword Sage and Seasoned Veteran all provide and open choice Learn Martial Technique. Why should the choice here be exempt from the regular Requirements?

I'm just posing questions here, but I think that in my opinion if the Martial Techniques provided in these cases are exempt from the regular Requirements, this undermines the Requirements system.

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John Deague

Hattar Tantoros di Caligo Dark-kin Templar of Cadic
Ruggiero val'Assante Val Noble
Ershan Yagmir Human Nomad
Turbulus Normaven Gnome Vagabond
Sibin val’Vasik Val Wilder


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:25 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Martial Techniques are gained from a Talent so they are definitely included (for Archetypes at least). However, I had never considered skipping logically required Talent prereqs (Spinning Strikes without TWF) and I agree that those should not be allowed (but probably would be per the current errata).

I think the freedom from Archetype works well. I'm less convinced on Background and definitely question allowing Path choice Talents to ignore prereqs (unless it is a "choose X or Y").

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Hopefully this quick answer will suffice....if a Talent is granted through Archetype, Background, or Path you are exempted from the requirements provided the Talent is specifically listed

e.g. If you take a Path at T2 that grants LMT:Vital Strike, you can use it regardless of requirements. If the Path grants "Learn Martial Technique", you may choose any Martial Technique you meet the requirements for (including Tier)....which would disallow Vital Strike.

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