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 Post subject: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:52 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
Posts: 193
Hey all,

I had a player bring something to my attention that I had never noticed before.
The Fire, Frost, and Lightning runes in the Forged in Magic states:
Quote:
Wand & Weapon:... The damage bonus applies to any spell that causes fire/cold/electricity damage as well all weapon attacks.


My player fights with a weapon and casts arcane spells. So he read the rules to mean that when has that rune activated on his sword he gains the bonus to damage to his weapon attacks and the proper elemental spells he casts.

But because the wand doesn't have any rules to be used as a weapon. I thought it meant that when the rune was in a weapon you got the bonus to damage on weapon attacks, and when it was on a wand you get the bonus to damage on the proper elemental spells. Also the caster is not casting the spell through their weapon so the bonus damage to the spell wouldn't count. (I think.)

Is he reading this correctly, and all casters should be putting elemental runes in weapons instead of wands because you get the bonus in both situations?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:10 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1032
As written, I think it's pretty clear your player is correct (I had missed that as well but I don't really have any elemental casters). If that was the intent or not, I can't say.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
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Location: Portland OR
While I can think of some corner cases (runestaff, permanent runes, Arcimious Primus fighting style) you generally do not cast spells through weapons. I think its pretty clear despite the wording that the rune on your wand (only) works on spells and the rune on your weapon (only) works on your physical attacks.

I think your player needs to buys another rune...

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
While I can think of some corner cases (runestaff, permanent runes, Arcimious Primus fighting style) you generally do not cast spells through weapons. I think its pretty clear despite the wording that the rune on your wand (only) works on spells and the rune on your weapon (only) works on your physical attacks.

I think your player needs to buys another rune...


I agree that that is very likely the intent. However, I'm curious why you think it's "pretty clear" that how it works is contrary to the very clear English of the effect description?

I'm surprised this hasn't come up in any errata discussions before.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:22 pm 
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Interesting. I've never had cause to look at the wording before, as haven't had a PC with both an elemental rune and ability to cast elemental spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:16 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Southernskies wrote:
Interesting. I've never had cause to look at the wording before, as haven't had a PC with both an elemental rune and ability to cast elemental spells.


Same here. I'm sure I read it before but I tend to do more of the buffing type caster rather than elemental (though I'll likely try building another Elorii Elder caster with the revised Sorcerous Pacts). I did do an elder battle Mage in a home game but he had a rune staff so it didn't matter for that character (not that I played him long enough to get runes).

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Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:07 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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I'm glad to see I wasn't the only person surprised by this.

So I think we agree the rules as written is that by putting an elemental rune in weapon a caster gets the damage to their proper elemental spells.
But the original intent may have been something different.

Should some kind of errata be done for this?

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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:17 pm 
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The language is plain and clear, so I don't see any errata need; its just a surprise to everyone that it wasn't noticed before.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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The Vault wrote:
Should some kind of errata be done for this?


It depends what the intent was. If the intent matches the wording then obviously not. If the intent was weapon affect weapon damage and wands affect spell damage (and neither affects the other type of damage) then, yes, there should be errata. However, until we heard from someone official, nobody can say if errata is warranted or not.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Fire, Frost, and Lightning Runes
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:48 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
Probably yes there should be errata.

When I read that my impression is that this is bad writing and the author mashed the effects of wands and weapons together...perhaps since wands and weapons are listed together as one category in that section of FiM. Despite the fact the language is clear, interpreting it RAW (A) makes a wand rune superfluous (since I'm getting a damage boost to spells AND a weapon boost...why would I have a wand for these runes??? - no caster here, no wands on me!) ... and (2) it's out of line with the power levels of other runes...combining two benefits like this is usually the domain of a permanent rune. And (3) It doesn't make sense to me in game why the rune on you axe/sword helps you cast spells (and even less sense why your wand helps you whack people with your axe/sword).

I get rules disputes like this wrong half the time so I am hardly a definitive voice on the matter, but I suspect strongly that RAW in this cases is wrong.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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