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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:00 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
I had always thought there were essentially two degrees of being unbound. There were devils that weren't bound, but were bindable, and that is most of the "wild" ones we encounter, and then there are one with the "Unbound" trait which make them unbindable for some reason.

My question from the campaign would be the recent fight against fiendish hyena men, where their shaman were summoned demons. Those shaman certainly weren't sarishan's, and so I assumed the demons they were summoning would have counted as unbound, but could have been bound by a Sarishan.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:17 pm 
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There's more than one way to bind an infernal.

I have little idea about what the Hyena men were stated out as...my table fought Blight Beaers in the basement. And honestly a lot was left for the special judges to interpret and "wing." But I can tell you IC or OOC that Ymandragore has its own binding style for controlling infernals (Bindings of Ymandragore?) that apparently has nothing to do with Sarishian teachings.

I don't know what happens if a Sarishian tries to bind an infernal that's already bound by Ymandrake (or other) magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:22 pm 
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My primary PCs in both Living Arcanis (Dante) and Legends of Arcanis (Sestius Ovidius) have been Sarishan, and the former became a Sarishan Binder (prestige class). Thus, I've paid careful attention to the rules on Infernals in both game systems to understand both the spirit and letter of the rules. See especially Legacy of Damnation from PCI; although the rules in that book do not apply to the ARPG system, it does elaborate on what it means for an Infernal to be Bound vs. Unbound; and the spirit of that concept is the best we have in the absence of any new rules.

In d20 rules, Bound/Unbound and Native/Extraplanar were completely independent traits such that whether an Infernal was Bound or Unbound did not inherently connect with whether it was Native (i.e., born on Arcanis) or Extraplanar (i.e., born on another world/plane/realm). I have seen no evidence nor reason for that to differ in ARPG. I don't think I've seen any examples of native vs. extraplanar mattering yet in the new rules. An infernal is Bound if it has ever been bound by a Sarishan, and it is Unbound if it has never been so bound. Regardless of the name of the spell, Bindings of Sarish seems by both its flavor text and its special rules limitation to be intended to allow the caster to control an Infernal that has previously been bound to Sarish; and the spell does not seem intended to perform an original binding on a previously Unbound Infernal.

I have not found any mechanism yet in the ARPG rules system that seems intended to bind a previously Unbound Infernal.

Although no mod has thus far listed the Unbound trait, I presume that all Infernals from Beyond the Wall during the Crusade are Unbound. It was made explicit in Living Arcanis and Legacy of Damnation that all Infernals from Beyond the Wall (a.k.a. the Infernal Expanse, or the Unsealed Lands) are Unbound. It similarly seems clear that all Infernals summoned by spells (Diabolism and Blood traditions) are Bound, and furthermore I encourage giving them all the Thrice-Bound monstrous trait since it fits the concept of their being able to be summoned.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Several prior posters in this thread have been inappropriately mixing up Bound/Unbound with Native/Extraplanar, especially in their statements about d20 rules. Be careful not to trust all posters [including me since I can make mistakes, too] unless you confirm their sources. For example, the d20 rule was that standard Sarishan steel did not affect Native Infernals but tempered Sarishan steel did affect Native Infernals; and it had nothing to do with Bound or Unbound. See Legacy of Damnation rules.

For the most part, Infernals from Beyond the Wall were considered Native and Unbound, whereas summoned Infernals were considered Extraplanar and Bound. In the years before the Gods' Wall fell, the default was that practically all Infernals encountered in Onara were Extraplanar and Bound. Still, it is possible for an Infernal to be Extraplanar and Unbound or to be Native and Bound.

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:12 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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Dante thank you for 2 excellent posts that clearly explain the situation with Infernals.

I'd like to add one point.

Dante wrote:
I don't think I've seen any examples of native vs. extra-planar mattering yet in the new rules.

The spell Banishment would seem to be intended to work only on extra-planar creatures. While the rules as written seems to indicate that it can also work on Native Infernals (and Elementals and Celestials).
You are correct it doesn't matter in the rules, but I think this should matter.

I think even with the game changes it's important to keep the distinction between Bound/Unbound and Native/Extra-Planar on stat blocks.
I know we can't go back and easily change the Crusade Arc modules, and with discussion on this forum about the possibility of retiring those modules, there is no real need.

But I hope stat block writers going forward remember to add that piece of information.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:06 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
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After all these responses, My conclusion is that this is a gray area in the rules. The Unbound trait hasn't been defined. The d20 rules may or may not apply to ARG mods. So in those very rare cases where this comes up, I' m going to use the following guideline, which seems to follow from Cody's posts:

An infernal CAN be bound with the Bindings of Sarish spell unless:
1. The infernal has the Unbounf trait.
Or
2. The infernal's description/stat block states that it can NOT be bound with the spell.

I assume that the 1000-eyed minions would fall into one of these categories.

The GM is always welcome to disagree and make his own ruling on the matter.

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