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 Post subject: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:18 am 
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Location: Portland OR
So...recent alleged revelations of the val'Holryn family have lit a fire under me to finally build a Knight of the Order of the Phoenix as my back up character behind Tukufu. This character, Szymon val'Holryn, will emulate the val'Mehan bloodline (for at least three reasons including a desire for him to be eligible story-wise to eventually/potentially learn the rite to bond mastiff & knight).

Looking at the mechanics I have a question. Can I take the Tier IV bloodline talent as a prerequisite of getting to the capstone Tier 5 Talent (Master of the Arcanum)? The conflict is listed below:

From the Knights of the Phoenix: they get a special Mastiff as a bonded companion and "may never have any Loyal Companion from any source other than the Mastif granted by the Rite of the Phoenix Talent."

From val'Mehan: The (only) Tier IV val'Mehan talent (Infernal Servant) gives you an infernal as a Loyal Companion.

Is it possible to take the bloodline talent without claiming the infernal servant? Or is this build capped at the Tier 3 bloodline talent?

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:28 am 

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I'm nobody official but I would say you could definitely take the tier 4 ability. Story-wise (not sure about mechancis), you could even use it to claim the infernal companion but then you would be immediately kicked out of the Order of the Phoenix (at a minimum) for breaking your oath.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
I am not interested in being kicked out of the Order....I just want to reach the capstone ability of the val'Mehan bloodline talents at Tier V. In a perfect world (for my PC) he'd be able to apply the talent toward advancing the hound ... But I already know that's not legal.

My question is can I take the IV Bloodline talent but not claim the mechanical benefit (using it as a "blank") except to meet the prerequisite of the Tier V bloodline?

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:58 pm 
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To the last one, I vote on "No." Talents represent milestones in a Hero's life, for better or for worse, and you can't just say ". . . nah, I'm good!"

To the actual rules of how this would work, my thoughts are that there is no T4 and T5 bloodline for you, in much the same way that there are probably very few Holyrn with Dellenov powers within the Order. However, rules questions are better directed towards Matt or PCI staff (and I'm the question is noodling around in there as soon as this topic is seen).

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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:58 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Well...this is a bit of a sticky wicket. From a purely mechanical perspective you cannot take the T4 bloodline power. For 2 reasons: 1) the Order of the Phoenix path states you cannot have any other Loyal Companions and 2) you cannot have more than 1 Loyal Companion. Plus, you cannot really say "I am taking a Talent, but not taking it".

However, from a story perspective, I am guessing the the OotP has had to deal with situations where Val'Mehan (or, especially, Val'Holryn with Mehan powers) have joined the ranks. What do they do in this case? That is a Henry question. Obviously, this needs an errata, but the rules answer will hinge on his story answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:15 am 
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Yeah the story angle is weird and it's a corner case.

To be clear I am not looking for a second companion (or even really a mechanical benefit beyond eventually getting to to Tier V bloodline ability).

I had the idea that the tier IV bloodline ability might be interpreted that you gain the ability to summon an infernal servant but that a character could choose not to exercise that ability. I agree, as RAW it's currently a barrier.

I guess I'll wait and see what further thoughts develop.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:53 am 
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Undead Hounds and apply the usual stacking/source rules?

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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:53 am 
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Or apply infernal characteristics to the hound? AR and spiked tail perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:14 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
Yeah the story angle is weird and it's a corner case.

To be clear I am not looking for a second companion (or even really a mechanical benefit beyond eventually getting to to Tier V bloodline ability).

I had the idea that the tier IV bloodline ability might be interpreted that you gain the ability to summon an infernal servant but that a character could choose not to exercise that ability. I agree, as RAW it's currently a barrier.

I guess I'll wait and see what further thoughts develop.


This combo is odd. The other instance I can recall that is sort of similar is Ulfilan Ranger which grants an air elemental as Loyal Companion but that one explicitly says it replaces any already-existing companion.

I like Akira's suggestion of applying an Infernal trait or two to the hound but that's definitely not strictly RAW (no idea if it would fit story-wise).

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 Post subject: Re: Knight of the Phoenix & Val Mehan bloodline
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:28 am 
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Location: Portland OR
LOL. Szymon does not want an infernal hound! What would the good people of Tralia say? ... Or at least he does not want a hound that is any more "infernal" than the bound mastiff is to start off with (...which *everyone* knows is really a smart warm hearted puppy despite the limb crushing jaws...)

The bound mastiffs of the Order of the Phoenix are already magical ... at a guess binding a demon to one or some how turning them infernal shouldn't even possible.

But thanks for the ideas!

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Last edited by val Holryn on Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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