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 Post subject: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:39 pm 

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So we've seen it spelled out that you can do 0 recovery maneuvers when you are under recovery. As strain and recovery are parallel mechanisms, I was wondering if it made sense to consider if 0 strain spells should be castable while under strain without taking damage from existing strain. Or is damage taken for casting through strain, even when it is a zero strain spell, just the balance for the fact that you can cast through strain, but you can't maneuver through recovery?

I can see it both ways, as it seems reasonable that if a spell doesn't cause strain, it shouldn't shock the system to cast while under strain like other spells. But on the flip side, casters already have the advantage of being able to cast while under strain.

I ask because there are a number of 0 strain spells, and especially push spells, that I am finding are essentially useless (like shield of enduring will) because when I am usually under enough strain when I might want to cast them, that casting would hurt as much as what I am trying to cast it to avoid. It seems like these spells would serve a better purpose in the game if you could cast them while under strain without taking damage, since they cause no strain themselves.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:12 pm 

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You have to remember the rationale behind both. Recovery is a representation of how unbalanced you become by performing a maneuver. As such a Recovery 0 maneuver is said to not be unbalancing at all. However, strain is the result of the power of creation moving through your body. Note the word MOVING.

The question is a metaphysical one. Does strain represent your bodies response to stress, or the stress being put on your body. Which put another way, asks if the mojo of spell #1 is still acting on your body when you cast spell #2. Given the number of spells that are NOT instantaneous effects, I'd say the mojo is still moving through the body while strain is ticking off. This would point to a position that you take damage when casting the second spell. Keep in mind, you don't take EXTRA damage from the second zero strain spell. So your still getting a benefit from choosing to cast a zero strain spell.

Returning to a pure mechanical view, zero strain spells are on average profoundly more powerful than zero recovery maneuvers. Typically, most zero strain spells come from applying Rapid Spell to Elder magic. So not only are the Elorri getting away with double dipping on the Rapid Spell benefit (-1 strain for Elder, -1 strain for rapid spell) Allowing them to be case without damage, would be unbalancing. Pun intended.

OMG Did I just call something mechanically unbalancing? Oh dear, I must be getting conservative in my old age.

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:39 pm 
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I think it's clear from the rules that you take damage even though the second spell is zero strain. Yes that makes some push spells less cool depending on your style of play.

I have two further thoughts on it.

ONE: Yes there probably SHOULD be some small subset of spells that would not trigger damage from previous strain just because it's seems wrong that spell casters uniquely suffer damage from attacking. As a practical matter the vast majority of builds I've seen have a "work around" usually combining casting with regular "fighting" ... because no one wants to sit around while they go into "cool down." If that's he case (as is Tukufu) then some times Shield of Enduring will makes sense.

TWO: There is no shortage of casters in the game. Often the tables I sit at are over half casters. So I don't believe spell casters need a power up of some type.

Hey I have a THIRD thought: if they ever do a second edition linking a (limited?) ability to cast with ignoring strain to the arcane archetype would be a great incentive to take the arcane archetype

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:34 pm 
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I think the balance is that when you are under Strain you at least have the option to cast another spell. Under recovery you do not have the option to use another Recovery maneuver.

John

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:40 pm 
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I do not understand the logic (narratively) that a Push-based magical effect should not affect strain caused by casting magical effects. Do you imply that Push spells do not put a strain on the body (which is the whole narrative purpose of Strain the mechanic)? Is it a separate, safer source or magic?

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:03 pm 

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Nierite wrote:
I do not understand the logic (narratively) that a Push-based magical effect should not affect strain caused by casting magical effects. Do you imply that Push spells do not put a strain on the body (which is the whole narrative purpose of Strain the mechanic)? Is it a separate, safer source or magic?


What I'm saying is, spells with no strain cause no strain, and thus narratively casting them while under strain should cause no harm. I bring this up as a balance issue because most push spells have no strain, and quite often one needs to cast them when one is under strain, but can't survive casting the zero strain spell because oddly, it would cause to much damage - thus rendering most push spells useable only in reaction to a surprise or a planned event, and not much use after the first 2 ticks of combat.

I will note, that despite my belief that this argument makes sense, I pretty much dropped this discussion because I saw the strength of Eric's argument. 80% of the characters appear to be casters, so obviously casting is not suffering from too many disadvantages right now, now matter how correct my logic. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:08 pm 
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Technically the 0 Strain spells do have Strain; equal to what you're casting through.

So having Strain 5 and then casting a Push 5 becomes:
(reduce existing Strain to 0), 10 Stamina damage, Push 5, Strain 5.
And the new strain won't start to reduce until you get through the Push and have another action.

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:42 pm 

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Southernskies wrote:
Technically the 0 Strain spells do have Strain; equal to what you're casting through.

So having Strain 5 and then casting a Push 5 becomes:
(reduce existing Strain to 0), 10 Stamina damage, Push 5, Strain 5.
And the new strain won't start to reduce until you get through the Push and have another action.


Can you provide where is says a spell has the strain you currently have? It seems apparent that a zero strain spell has... zero strain. If there is no strain associated with the spell, why should it cause damage just because you are currently under strain?

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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What he's saying is that casting a 0 Strain spell while you have Strain not only causes damage but it also delays your Strain counting down. As an example:

1) non-casting action after casting a spell - Strain starts counting down
2) Strain 4
3) Strain 3 - cast a 0 Strain spell with speed 4 (Push or not) - Strain 3 and 6 damage to yourself
4-7) Strain 3
8) non-casting action - Strain 2

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 Post subject: Re: 0 strain spells vs 0 recovery manuevers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Yes.
See "Bypassing Strain" pg.347.
Quote:
Bypassing Strain: Unlike Recovery (which is used for Martial Maneuvers) Strain can be ignored at the caster’s peril. If a player wishes to cast another spell whilst under the effects of Strain (that is after the Speed for the spell has passed but before the Strain has ended) they may, suffering doubles the remaining strain in Stamina loss. Any remaining strain is then added to the Strain value of the spell cast. For example if you cast a spell with a Strain of 4 while still under the effects of 2 Strain you suffer 4 points of stamina damage and gain an additional 4 Strain (for a total of 6 Strain).

Using my example above: 0+5 = 5.

Note that due to structure of the clock, it can be (poorly) argued that there is a loophole in the above text to cast Push spells without taking damage (ie: "after Speed for the spell has passed but before the Strain has ended") but in practice, (and for sanity), Strain and Recovery waiting in the pool or already on the Clock are treated by GMs as the same.

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