Last visit was: It is currently Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:49 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Looking at Steel Dragon closely, I have to ask why it requires TWF? All of the abilities are solely around the Steel Whip and using TWF is pretty much useless (Steel Whip is not light so -3 on both attacks to hit and Steel Dragon is a Stance so you can't use Balanced Blades to reduce it).

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
Posts: 486
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Well, under the "Chosen Weapons" section of that fighting style, it states that the style is designed around using a steel whip and " a smaller, off-handed light weapon".

_________________
Matthew Flinn
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Rules Liaison

-general creator of mayhem and discord
-Exceptional quality PCI Minion and indentured servant
-Lord of the Hummingbirds


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Yes but nothing in the style itself actually makes use of the "smaller, off-handed light weapon" and, since the steel whip is not light, you get the worse penalty for TWF (-3 instead of -2 plus can't use Balanced Blades to reduce it).

Mechanically, TWF (and training/skill in the light balanced weapon) is nothing but a talent/skill tax. The most effective use of Steel Dragon is to never actually use TWF or the light sword (unless you're using it just to eat away at recovery since its speed is probably faster than the steel whip).

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:02 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 2046
The Tier IV ability is the capstone and uses TWF

Tier IV: Once per scene, while in this stance, when you successfully knock someone prone with your steel whip you may follow up with your off-hand as a basic Free Strike against that target

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Except that doesn't even use TWF - it just uses a second weapon (I assume this is to bypass the big TWF penalty which would more than negate the TE bonus to hit (for prone)).

I suppose part of my issue may be that I've never been very happy with Arcanis TWF rules. For a cost of two talents, you have a -1 to hit and are in a stance (so you can't use any other stance such as Defense, Forward, or any fighting style). That's a really high cost for the benefits.

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:30 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 am
Posts: 2467
Location: Central Alberta
Two-Weapon Fighting isn't a stance, as it is a Simple Combat Maneuver (ARPG pg. 312).

Two-Weapon Fighting (ta) isn't a stance, but is a simple Combat Talent (ARPG pg. 211).

Steel Dragon IS a Stance, and cannot be combined with another Stance.

_________________
Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


Last edited by Nierite on Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:31 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 2046
It uses a weapon in your off hand, meaning TWF.

John

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Nierite wrote:
Two-Weapon Fighting isn't a stance, as it is a Simple Combat Maneuver (ARPG pg. 312).

Two-Weapon Fighting (ta) isn't a stance, but is a simple Combat Talent (ARPG pg. 211).

Steel Dragon IS a Stance, and cannot be combined with another Stance.


But Steel Whip is a non-light weapon making the penalty -3 for doing TWF with it. Even adding in Balanced Blades (which is a stance) only decreases it to -2.

TWF is marginal until you add in Balanced Blades and/or Spinning Strikes. Fighting styles effectively remove Balanced Blades as an option since both are stances (leaving you with the damage increase from TWF and Spinning Strikes but the -2 or -3 to hit on both attacks (which is significant)). If I recall correctly, someone ran the numbers and found that for average TNs, it works out to around 5% so that's 10% or 15% less likely to hit.

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 900
That's the price you pay for learning a Fighting Style. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

This is not an issue if your non-whip is the light weapon.

Quote:
Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat]
You suffer a -2 to hit with both attacks (with a further -1 if one of the weapons is not light). Once both attacks are resolved, increase your Clock by the slower weapon’s Speed +2.


Having the talent, it does not matter what order or weapon you attack with; just that one of the weapons is not light. Depending upon the combination, the whip can be designated as the off-hand weapon without any further penalties.

Steel Whip + Sidesword:
1. Steel Dragon + TWF/Spinning Strike = -2 Whip, -2 Balanced (Stance until next action)
2. Balanced Blades + TWF/Spinning Strike = -1 Whip, -1 Balanced (Stance until next action)

There is nothing stopping you swapping between Stances each time your action comes up.

_________________
LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.1
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 4
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why does Steel Dragon require TWF?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Southernskies wrote:
That's the price you pay for learning a Fighting Style. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

This is not an issue if your non-whip is the light weapon.

Quote:
Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat]
You suffer a -2 to hit with both attacks (with a further -1 if one of the weapons is not light). Once both attacks are resolved, increase your Clock by the slower weapon’s Speed +2.


Having the talent, it does not matter what order or weapon you attack with; just that one of the weapons is not light. Depending upon the combination, the whip can be designated as the off-hand weapon without any further penalties.

Steel Whip + Sidesword:
1. Steel Dragon + TWF/Spinning Strike = -2 Whip, -2 Balanced (Stance until next action)
2. Balanced Blades + TWF/Spinning Strike = -1 Whip, -1 Balanced (Stance until next action)

There is nothing stopping you swapping between Stances each time your action comes up.


Huh. I think I've been misreading and misplaying the TWF penalty. I was always reading "if one of the weapons is not light" as "if either one of the weapons is not light" (which is where I came up with -3 for Steel Dragon). If your reading is correct (and I think it probably is) then it would only be -2 as long as the off-hand weapon is light, That "extra" +1 does make it better.

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ]  Moderators: james.zwiers, PCI Eric, PCI_StatMonkey Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net & kodeki