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Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2125		 Page 4 of 4
Author:  wilcoxon [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
val Holryn wrote:
Could be an interesting idea. How long does it take to remove a peace bond? A demanding action? More? Less? Can a peace bond be faked? Worth thinking about.


I'd say either 4 or 7 tick action to remove peace bonding. Alternately, you can break peace bonding but it should be fairly hard (TN:20 Athletics maybe?) as a 2 or 4 tick action.

Yes, it could be faked but I'm not sure what skill would be appropriate (I could see Melee, Stealth, Deceit, or Larceny being appropriate).
Author:  acurrier [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
If I had a player who wanted to make their weapon look like it is peace-bonded, I would probably ask for a Deceit (Qu) roll. Larceny could also work I suppose.
Author:  ZCaslar [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
Creating a specific circumstance that favors a selective advantage also helps highlight how that option is otherwise underwhelming. As someone who made it a point to be good at Turning Undead last edition I suggest you don't make the effort.

And let's keep it real: we're professional destroyers. Anyone less important than an Emperor is overstepping themselves in demanding we enter their presence devoid of weapons and spell-casting paraphernalia.

We're always loaded for The Red Wedding. It's a necessity of our destinies.

I don't doubt PC's would go along with because, shyeah, it's a game day and we all took the effort to get together, but in a less meta context that isn't likely to be happening.
Author:  toodeep [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
ZCaslar wrote:
And let's keep it real: we're professional destroyers. Anyone less important than an Emperor is overstepping themselves in demanding we enter their presence devoid of weapons and spell-casting paraphernalia.


Wow. My thinking was exactly the opposite. We're people that have killed many, many dangerous people/beings. We carry curses, strange artifacts, and many of us have PTSD. I would think anyone with a brain would try to neuter us as much as possible before letting us in their presence. Certainly anyone in Almeric would, since the odds we'd try to kill them and one of us declare ourselves king of the region reasonable high. :) My character doesn't think he's divinely empowered to kill anyone he wants, so why wouldn't I comply with a request to disarm in a supposedly safe environment, unless I have a reason to distrust my host?
Author:  val Holryn [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
ZCaslar wrote:
...snip...let's keep it real: we're professional destroyers. Anyone less important than an Emperor is overstepping themselves in demanding we enter their presence devoid of weapons and spell-casting paraphernalia.

We're always loaded for The Red Wedding. It's a necessity of our destinies...snip...

I disagree with that on several levels.

Realistically any lord or lady who can't get rid of a half dozen armed trouble makers had better be "universally loved" ... or there will be a new lord or lady by next spring. To paraphrase the late R. Jordan, the road to power is paved with daggers. How much physical risk any NPC takes is a combination of their desperation for the PCs help, local customs, and how much they fear violence. There are lots of situations where it isn't appropriate for PCs to go in armed to the teeth.

As for PCs being destroyers...well yes, that's true. If your PC has played through the current mods then they've stabbed shot or ensorcelled a phenomenal collection of crazy stuff. Like Uhxbractit and an Avatar of Tzizhet. While I sometimes wonder IC or OOC if I'm supposed to take a set of threatening mooks seriously, I also firmly believe two things. (1) The PCs aren't the toughest & baddest things around...and (2) people who think they can solve any confrontation "with a sword" end up dead in a forgotten ditch.
Author:  ZCaslar [ Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
toodeep wrote:
ZCaslar wrote:
My character doesn't think he's divinely empowered to kill anyone he wants, so why wouldn't I comply with a request to disarm in a supposedly safe environment, unless I have a reason to distrust my host?


I agree about the (metaphorical) neutering, but I don't see that as being a thing a survivor of something like the Crusades would take to passively. The phrase "the front line is everywhere" is the unofficial credo of the adventurer.

Hm. I don't think I said anything about believing in a universal right to slay whoever I want. But self-defense? Absolutely. A host who demands you appear unarmed is either claiming that s/he's so powerful that you must trust them with your life or they're looking forward to watching you die in your finest evening wear. In either case it's about projecting their ego onto your lifespan.

Incidentally all this is in the context of the utility of Unarmed Combat and it's "at least you can't be asked to surrender your limbs at the door" reliability.

val Holryn wrote:
ZCaslar wrote:
...snip...let's keep it real: we're professional destroyers. Anyone less important than an Emperor is overstepping themselves in demanding we enter their presence devoid of weapons and spell-casting paraphernalia.

We're always loaded for The Red Wedding. It's a necessity of our destinies...snip...

I disagree with that on several levels.

Realistically any lord or lady who can't get rid of a half dozen armed trouble makers had better be "universally loved" ... or there will be a new lord or lady by next spring. To paraphrase the late R. Jordan, the road to power is paved with daggers. How much physical risk any NPC takes is a combination of their desperation for the PCs help, local customs, and how much they fear violence. There are lots of situations where it isn't appropriate for PCs to go in armed to the teeth.

As for PCs being destroyers...well yes, that's true. If your PC has played through the current mods then they've stabbed shot or ensorcelled a phenomenal collection of crazy stuff. Like Uhxbractit and an Avatar of Tzizhet. While I sometimes wonder IC or OOC if I'm supposed to take a set of threatening mooks seriously, I also firmly believe two things. (1) The PCs aren't the toughest & baddest things around...and (2) people who think they can solve any confrontation "with a sword" end up dead in a forgotten ditch.


I'm not arguing that those situations don't exist, I'm arguing that that our willingness to comply with them is at least a little artificial. You and I came up through Living City. We've both been through mods where circumstance demanded the PC's be "neutered" to fit the whims of the scene, and then suddenly it was "the Hill Giants With Spiked Chains Go First." Were you surprised when it happened? No? Was it because that development was obvious?

We were acclimated to RPG'ing under the assumption that "it might be a trap." Remember the Trallian Pajamas? How many times were we actually ambushed at night past about 8th level? That changed when those ambushes stopped being a meaningful way to drain PC resources. We both remember "you set up a complicated watch order and nothing happens over night." Similarly once spell casters started attaining their promised omni-competency getting ambushed at formal dinners stopped happening.

And yes -daggers. The Concealed Carry of medieval combat. Not flashing swords and streaking spell-fire. A half-dozen weirdos trying to make small talk in their spruced-up battle-rattle are rarely ever the actors enacting a "midnight regime change."

When I did I say anything about presumed PC martial supremacy? My point is that arranging for everyone to be set up in their most defenseless state and than springing a combat is tangibly artificial. "Springing a combat," btw. Not "I negotiate with a Mighty Sweeping Strike."

Consider the inverse: a gathering of Patricians and Church officials is being convened to discuss a critical issue and to get in they have to put on a set of a Lorica, heft a large shield and use a wooden sword to melee down a mercenary who's been dressed like an Ork. Once inside they'll be subject to randomly hurled soft fruit to encourage them to keep their shield up while they shout to be heard over the hundred legionnaires conducting maneuvers in the adjacent hallways.

They'd complain, and vocally. And why?

Because they're being put at an obviously contrived situation that forces them to operate at their weakest. There maybe a few of them that are comfortable in lorica and like shouting over the rumble of soldiers on the march. But rather like the dedicated Unarmed specialist at the tea party they're the radical exception to the obvious expectation of "you are here and you are at a engineered disadvantage -sucks to be you, padre'. More canapes?"

Also how long has it been since the PC's were put into a dangerous situation in which they were expected to lose? I remember thinking, and perhaps saying, as much about the Avatar of Tzizhet. "We can't possibly beat this." And frankly I still think we shouldn't have. That was utterly beyond our pay grade.

My ultimate point is this: creating a Unarmed specialist in the expectation of maybe being the lynchpin of a high-society ambush or scripting in events that demand that possibility are clear attempts to work in solutions to a problem that needs to be fixed on it's most basic level. No apologies, no excuses -it just isn't worth it. Maybe it shouldn't be.

Historically full-on Unarmed combat is almost a myth. Any actual combat art also taught weapons use. I'm fine with explicitly defying "reality" for narrative's sake, but if we're going to do that we need to make Unarmed combat mechanics be specifically viable without circumstantial convolutions.

(That's not even addressing the "natural weapons" weirdness that rates having an actual combat useful bite and/or claws as being essentially identical to having a good centerline defense. Muhammad Ali loses to a tiger 10/10 times, sorry.)
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