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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:49 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1307
toodeep wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
Where does it say that you get those free with Weapon Training (Unarmed)? Unless I missed something, each of those is a different weapon requiring its own Weapon Training.


pg 239 under the weapon trait "worn"

Quote:
Worn – This weapon is an Unarmed Attack. If you are trained in the Melee (Unarmed) skill, you may perform Unarmed Weapon Tricks as well as the weapon’s own Tricks. Weapons of this type cannot be disarmed, and as these weapons are worn they require spending a Complex Skill Action to don or remove. Quick draw does not reduce the time needed to don or remove a worn weapon.


I could be mistaken, but I thought that was part of what this meant.


It's been clarified in the Errata.

"Page: 239 (Errata) Worn weapon quality Change the 2nd Sentence to If you are trained in both the Melee (Unarmed) skill and Weapon Training (Unarmed), then you may perform Unarmed Weapon Tricks with this weapon as well as the weapon's own Tricks."

Note that it doesn't say you have to have weapon training with the worn weapon. So you could for example only have ranks and weapon training in Unarmed, wear a gauntlet and get the increased damage from the gauntlet (d4 vs. +1) while still using the Unarmed weapon tricks.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:48 am 
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You do need Weapon Training to benefit from any qualities of the weapon.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.1
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 4
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:16 am 
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Location: Portland OR
I worked up a character in detail for a Pugilist. Designed for Tier 1.5

Martial, Ssressen (Male Black Talon), Templar (Fire Dragon), Milandir
Advances: +5 Combat Skills, +5 any skills, any 2 talents, path (Grandmaster: Unarmed)

SKILLs
Melee (Unarmed) 5(+6 w WM1)
Melee (Unbalanced) 3
Arcanum (Cants) 3
Athletics 3
Battle 3
Deceit 1
Heal 1
Knowledge (Rel) 1
Mettle 2
Persuasion 1
Stealth 5
Wilderness Lore 3

TALENTs
(Arch)Advanced Armor Training & MT Sweeping Strike
(Arch) Weapon/Armor Training (All Milandesian including Unarmed & Ssressen Scale)
(Race) WM 1 (unarmed)
(Back) Wt w/ Flail, Dragon Hide & Strength of Faith
(Elective) Pugilist, Two Weapon Fighting, Smite Infidel
(Any 2) DSC 1, Fighting Style: Vaccus Comminus (tier 1...gives Take Down)
(Path Grand Master/Unarmed) Combat Intuition, Defensive Stance
(Special) Signature Move: either Shield Slam or Mighty Swing

I would set up the stats like . . .
Mi4. Pr7. Qu5. Vi5. Ch6. In4. Lo4. Re4.

Avoidance: 16 (18 w/a shield, modifies skills) Fortitude: 18 Discipline:18
AR:6(4) Stamina: 52 WOUNDs: 4. FATE 4

Important Gear: Holy Symbol of the Fire Dragon & Ssressen Scale. Maybe Large Shield
Spells: (presti): Minor Tricks, Discern Redidue, Witch Lights
(corpus) Cure Affliction, Diminish Fatigue, Restore Senses
(a/b) Immune to Adverse Climates
(ward) Ward of Shielding

That looks like a fleshed out (scary) fisticuffs specialist to me...
(Note that emphasis on utility style spells. This build is not a full spell caster.)
(Note2: the build still needs a flaw...)

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:46 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
I worked up a character in detail for a Pugilist. Designed for Tier 1.5

<snip>


I've worked up a few. By using Ss'ressen, you took the only race that gets Weapon Training (Unarmed) for free (which saves you a talent). If you want a Ss'ressen unarmed fighter, you are probably better off taking Natural Claws rather than Pugilist and then taking Tooth & Claw style (and possibly the Path I always forget the name of that builds on being Ss'ressen and Tooth & Claw).

Ss'ressen make the most versatile unarmed fighters (tail bracer, tail swipe, path to support them, etc). Gnomes get a bump to unarmed damage (Enlarged Hands deformity). val'Dellenovs get a bloodline and a few spells to help unarmed. Others are all about equal.

Also, I disagree that Iron Hands is beneficial "support" for unarmed. It is to (mechanically) make up for not being able to get an Exceptional weapon (but a Talent is far higher cost than some gold as you level through tier 2).

I'm not saying unarmed can't be effective. I'm just saying that it generally has a far higher talent cost than any other weapon (even Double Spear and the like that are supposed to be extremely rare).

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:15 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
wilcoxon wrote:
I'm not saying unarmed can't be effective. I'm just saying that it generally has a far higher talent cost than any other weapon (even Double Spear and the like that are supposed to be extremely rare).

My experience has been that with the exception of a few characters who are unarmed-specialists (most being Ansharan gnomes and tooth-and-claw Ssressens), the best use of unarmed is as a way to burn recovery. Heavy attack with a slow weapon, fast unarmed basic attack. I think someone already suggested the unbalancing unarmed followed by the heavy attack, which also works well.

The other benefit to unarmed is that it can't really be taken away from you (short of literally being disarmed). I'm still waiting for a module where the Heroes have to fight without their weapons...either to escape after being captured, or perhaps at an event where weapons are prohibited. The high cost of those unarmed talents will suddenly seem far more useful.

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aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.6)
aka Leif of House Borghild - Skohir Human Myrmidon (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik of Nol Dappa - Dwarven War Priest (Divine 2.3)


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 pm 
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A friend of mine suggested that as well so I am retooling Ursula a bit to do an Unbalancing Attack unarmed first (given her nature I expect it to be a swift kick to the nads) followed a by serious smack from her Tralian Hammer. Assuming it works the results should be pretty cool.

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:23 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
As an FYI ...

As a mod author i looked seriously (and repeatedly) for a way to restrict weapons carried in To Die Alone...just because that's what (IMO) an Almeric prince should require of heavily armed strangers entering "their" walled town. I didn't think I could make it work. The gap between "unaffected" pcs (spell casters and pugilists) was too great vis-a-via their "nerfed" brethren. In the end I dropped it and had Prince Walder issue a writ to the PCs to carry arms.

If an author does create a mod with where PCs and their gear are separated it would be wise to mention that in the blurb so players can make intelligent choices about what PC they want to bring.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:18 pm 
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Eric what about peace bonding the weapons? Their available it just takes a bit more time to get them ready. Could that work in a mod?

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
Eric what about peace bonding the weapons? Their available it just takes a bit more time to get them ready. Could that work in a mod?


Could be an interesting idea. How long does it take to remove a peace bond? A demanding action? More? Less? Can a peace bond be faked? Worth thinking about.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:27 pm 
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Faking a peace bond would probably involve some form of Deceit. Removing the actual peace bond would probably be a demanding action. How many ticks is that?

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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