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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1958
Location: Portland OR
I don't entirely see what the fuss is about.

The original question was do characters start out with Weapon Training (Unarmed) for free and the answer is no. People don't naturally start out with a gift for unarmed combat vis-a-via armed combat. To be dangerous with anything you have put in time and effort.

There is a secondary question/comment that mechanically it seems hard to pick up weapon training and mastery in unarmed combat. I kinda agree with this and personally, if running a home campaign, I might give it to martial archetype characters as a freebie. A lot of basic training from armies to self defense classes teach at hand to hand unarmed fighting. At a guess it's because the stakes are lower. An accidental hard punch is easier "to fix" than an accidental gun shot or knife stabbing. I disagree somewhat with Cody and his assessment of Legionsirres and unarmed combat. Though I agree as heavy infantry the core of their training was elsewhere, I think if we jumped in a time machine to "do research in the ancient world" that we'd see that you were worse off picking bar fights with Legionaires than with civilians.

Pre-Tukufu I played a Nierite and he feared getting killed in a bar fight because he sucked in melee without a sword in his hand(s). That simultaneously bugged me...and gave me an interesting hook to RP. On the other hand I've built a few characters as experiments tha centered on unarmed combat. I did not find it THAT onerous to spend the two talents on weapon training & pugilist.

Final note: No game that I've ever played simulates combat perfectly.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
val Holryn wrote:
On the other hand I've built a few characters as experiments tha centered on unarmed combat. I did not find it THAT onerous to spend the two talents on weapon training & pugilist.


It's a little worse than that. To be effective at unarmed damage-dealing, you need:
  • Weapon Training - much harder to get than for most weapons
  • Weapon Mastery - pretty much a wash because you need this for weapons too
  • Pugilist
  • Iron Fists
  • Grand Master Path (for Mighty Swing) - you need this for some weapons but quite a few get Mighty Swing

I don't think there's any other weapon that requires that many feats to be fully effective (even Steel Whip and Double Spear require less).

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 632
I don't see an issue. Fists are not as effective as knives. It SHOULD take more to make them as effective as a dagger.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 801
Location: Michigan
wilcoxon wrote:
val Holryn wrote:
On the other hand I've built a few characters as experiments tha centered on unarmed combat. I did not find it THAT onerous to spend the two talents on weapon training & pugilist.


It's a little worse than that. To be effective at unarmed damage-dealing, you need:
  • Weapon Training - much harder to get than for most weapons
  • Weapon Mastery - pretty much a wash because you need this for weapons too
  • Pugilist
  • Iron Fists
  • Grand Master Path (for Mighty Swing) - you need this for some weapons but quite a few get Mighty Swing

I don't think there's any other weapon that requires that many feats to be fully effective (even Steel Whip and Double Spear require less).


I agree with you on the weapon training argument, it seems that should be easier in general for a martial to get than it is right now (especially since this is an odd case of an expert having a starting advantage over a martial character in a fighting style), but on the rest I disagree.

It makes sense to me that it should take some additional training to be as deadly with unarmed combat as most people are with a dagger - that is reflected in the talent requirement pugilist. After that, you are as deadly as a dagger wielder. You have to remember that unarmed is a speed three weapon, so it isn't going to pack the damage a great sword will.

The fact that there even is an iron fists talent I think is great, and generous of the campaign design to support unarmed fighters with a useful talent when they want the campaign to reflect that unarmed combat is uncommon. The fact that unarmed combat might be suboptimal for large single blow damage dealing (no mighty swing) is true of many weapons, and is easily countered by the numerous advantages inherently given to unarmed fighters- never unarmed, is what is used in grapples, etc. Plus, it's easily gotten around by putting on a gauntlet - which is also a big advantage unarmed has - it has numerous weapons that can all be used, and whose weapon tricks can all be used, off of one base weapon training talent - between the basic unarmed, the gauntlet, and the cestus with just weapon training (unarmed) you can get access to 7 weapon tricks (shielding, grasp the blade, mighty swing, stunning strike, from earth to sky, rapid strike, and hamstring), which is significantly more than any other weapon provides.

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Last edited by toodeep on Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
toodeep wrote:
Plus, it's easily gotten around by putting on a gauntlet - which is also a big advantage unarmed has - it has numerous weapons that can all be used, and whose weapon tricks can all be used, off of one base weapon training talent - between the basic unarmed, the gauntlet, and the cestus with just weapon training (unarmed) you can get access to 7 weapon tricks (shielding, grasp the blade, mighty swing, stunning strike, from earth to sky, rapid strike, and hamstring), which is significantly more than any other weapon provides.


Where does it say that you get those free with Weapon Training (Unarmed)? Unless I missed something, each of those is a different weapon requiring its own Weapon Training.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 801
Location: Michigan
accidental repost, please ignore.

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AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Last edited by toodeep on Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:34 am
Posts: 960
Location: Southwestern Ohio
I currently have a Tier 1 Martial Character with Weapon Training Unarmed and Pugilist. I grant you her ranks are far less than her Tralian Hammer so I'm less likely to hit. But I go on speed 3 rather than speed 6 and hit with d4 (d10) which to my mind isn't that bad. More than happy to take her bare fisted into a bar fight (and I figure she's been in few).

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Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1958
Location: Portland OR
wilcoxon wrote:
It's a little worse than that. To be effective at unarmed damage-dealing, you need:
  • Weapon Training - much harder to get than for most weapons
  • Weapon Mastery - pretty much a wash because you need this for weapons too
  • Pugilist
  • Iron Fists
  • Grand Master Path (for Mighty Swing) - you need this for some weapons but quite a few get Mighty Swing

Weapon Training is admittedly somewhat harder than normal to get. Still you can get it by being an Expert or a Divine Ansharan (archetype), a Milandesian Ss'ressen (race helps unlock through martial archetype or a dozen backgrounds), mercenary (background...among a few others) or of course your racial and elective talents. Getting Weapon Training (unarmed) isn't restricted to exotic situations or left handed gnomes...nor does it take an epic quest to qualify for. Yes it's a little bit of a pain in the butt. But if you want this out the gate, then you have this out the gate.

WM1 is irrelevant IMO. You need it with whatever you are fighting with.

PUGILIST: yes this is requirement. Still I 100% agree with others that fists are not naturally as dangerous as daggers. Being different and effective in this case costs you a talent. IMO not a big deal...as has been pointed out these weapons can't be disarmed. Ever. If there was a talent that let swordsman never be disarmed & always have their weapons even when thrown in prison, lots of people would take it.

Iron Fists. Irrelevant in my opinion. You don't need this...PUGILIST brings you in line with a spd 3 d4 attacks. This talent improves on it! It's so good you're going to take it...but complain about it is complaining about talent support.

Grandmaster: Irrelevant IMO. Again to be the ultimate fighter of "X" you are probably going to to take this path regardless of your weapon choice. Just like WM1. Personally I'd first steal Shield Slam for the push and prone.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:39 pm 
I don't think there is much that is overvalued quite as badly as Unarmed combat, and while I respect the reality inherent in the "flailer versus brawler versus boxer" comparisons I think mechanical balance is more important.

Incidentally my own stake is that Unarmed governs Natural Weapons, so I now need to go back and make sure my DK knows how her horns work. Oh, and my knight who's headed towards that Great Sword fighting style -she's got Ranks, but she might not be proficient.

Also, if I understand this right, that means that if I decided to go with the Gladiator weapon package involving the paired katar -which share Unarmed combat skill with Unarmed combat- I could have ~6 ranks and actually not qualify as proficient in Unarmed Combat ...though I'd still be proficient with the katar themselves.

This is about as absurd as the character who gets Weapon Mastery (god's favored weapon) while having 0 (or the token single) rank(s) in that weapons skill.

My suggestion is dump "what makes sense" in favor of what's mechanically elegant. Bought Ranks = Proficiency. Unless allocating proficiency slots -without purchasing skill ranks- is a critical balance element, and I don't see that it is, this IMO is a sterling example of a time to "just let that **** slide."

The other example that comes to mind is the various iteration of the Master of Many Weapons (probably getting name wrong, apologies). Buying into a Path that provides broad proficiency, but not ranks, is not literally pointless, but as far as investment value goes I can't think of a worse example. Imagine scrambling for a weapon at a dock and realizing, "you have scooped up a fishing pole, you gain Spear Weapon proficiency, and now have no appreciable chance to score hits nor access to tricks." And I like the concept.

I was trying to finagle a build using that in 3rd ed; it's a terrific concept for a street-tough kind of person. But mechanically it's a strong example trying to make the apparent problem present into an advantage.

Edit: dialing back the sarcasm just a wee bit. But seriously. This seems to be not a particularly necessary distinction between being trained in something's use and being proficient in it's use.


Last edited by ZCaslar on Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapon Training (Unarmed)?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:40 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 801
Location: Michigan
wilcoxon wrote:
Where does it say that you get those free with Weapon Training (Unarmed)? Unless I missed something, each of those is a different weapon requiring its own Weapon Training.


pg 239 under the weapon trait "worn"

Quote:
Worn – This weapon is an Unarmed Attack. If you are trained in the Melee (Unarmed) skill, you may perform Unarmed Weapon Tricks as well as the weapon’s own Tricks. Weapons of this type cannot be disarmed, and as these weapons are worn they require spending a Complex Skill Action to don or remove. Quick draw does not reduce the time needed to don or remove a worn weapon.


I could be mistaken, but I thought that was part of what this meant.

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