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Fixing the Martial Archtype
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2117		 Page 4 of 5
Author:  archangel [ Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
Hat wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
archangel wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


Agreed. As I said above, Advanced Armor Training is huge. It allows you to have an Exceptional normally-bulk 2 armor as bulk 0. Even a Ssressen can't get that high without being martial (Dragon Hide effectively gives you 1 bulk (-1 Avoidance) and Ssressen Scale Armor is bulk 1).


The penalty for bulk is -1 Avoidance, -5 Pace. 5 Gc Fine Celerity rune fixes the second problem. 1 point of Avoidance is nice. Better than yawn worthy but far from any sort of make or break. What am I missing here?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

That it also applies to all might, prowess, and quickness rolls other than attack rolls. It is 1 only a -1 but it is on so many things it hurts. You can also get some benefit even if you don't get bulk to 0 and don't have to get exceptional armor yet and wait until later in the game.
Author:  Hat [ Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
archangel wrote:
Hat wrote:
The penalty for bulk is -1 Avoidance, -5 Pace. 5 Gc Fine Celerity rune fixes the second problem. 1 point of Avoidance is nice. Better than yawn worthy but far from any sort of make or break. What am I missing here?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

That it also applies to all might, prowess, and quickness rolls other than attack rolls. It is 1 only a -1 but it is on so many things it hurts. You can also get some benefit even if you don't get bulk to 0 and don't have to get exceptional armor yet and wait until later in the game.


Thanks for the reminder. Better than I remembered, but still not make or break. Not all Martial builds use or rely on worn armor.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, exceptional armor will never take bulk to 0. The Celerity rune won't take you to 0 either. The only way to get a 0 bulk is through AAT.

It's a nice ability. I'm curious how often the bulk penalty for Mi, Pr and Qu based skills comes up in a mod though in terms of practical impact or how often that 1 point makes a difference.

Thanks again for clarifying.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  Southernskies [ Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
I really notice the Shield Modifier of my Tower Shield when using skills outside attack rolls (as I have 0 net Bulk on my armour).

Armour users notice even 1 Bulk on their rolls over a long period (as long as the GM reminds them!)
Author:  val Holryn [ Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
Tukufu curses his one bulk on every Althletics check...
Author:  Hat [ Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
Southernskies wrote:
I really notice the Shield Modifier of my Tower Shield when using skills outside attack rolls (as I have 0 net Bulk on my armour).

Armour users notice even 1 Bulk on their rolls over a long period (as long as the GM reminds them!)


Over a long period, sure the 1 point may make a difference. If it takes that long to notice though, how much of a real impact is it?

Unless performed in combat, a shield can simply be stowed removing the SM penalty (while climbing for example) and then ready the shield again.

Impacted skills:
Acrobatics - has an impact
Athletics - has an impact
Larceny - has an impact
Melee - no impact; combat roll or likely to be another attribute (like Logic)
Ranged - no impact; combat roll or likely to be another attribute (like Logic)
Ride - rarely if ever comes up as basic riding is TN 5 I think. Mounted combat is rare and very situational and if you're using Ride to cause your mount to attack I would expect that falls under the combat roll.
Stealth - has an impact; whole group test though for make or fail typically

A 1 point adjustment on a 2d10 +d(Att) + modifier roll is hard to calculate in terms of % impact unlike a d20 roll where it's a flat 5%.

For the skills described above, they aren't called upon very often. If it takes many mods for their be enough rolls to notice an impact, then it doesn't have much of an effect. Of the impacted skills above, Larceny is considered a specialist's skill. Acrobatics is usually a replacement for Athletics or it's an either or roll. As noted, with Stealth, the entire party succeeds or fails.

I'm not saying it's a negligible benefit, it's nice. If you gave a martial character the option for a spell of their choice as an ability in place of AAT, at a minimum I don't think it's a no brainer to keep AAT.

For those not familiar, my primary is a Martial. My arguments for improvements for them have been fairly modest, and I still think the best way to help determine balance is to look at situations that come up and how they are solved, then map that back to mechanics and archetypes. That way the discussion would be off a common set of assumptions and ground rules.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  Southernskies [ Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
Using http://anydice.com/ its easy enough to find. (summarized output):

output 2d10+[explode 1d8]
TN#15, 59.56% <-- also most common 'vanquished by wounds' death roll
TN#20, 24.85%
TN#25, 6.82%
TN#30, 1.90%

output 2d10+[explode 1d8]-1 (ie: Bulk 1)
TN#15, 52.07%
TN#20, 19.71%
TN#25, 5.17%
TN#30, 1.45%

Untrained at TN#15, its ~7% difference. TN#20 is ~5%. So very similar to 1d20 targets.


For a 'specialist':
output 2d10+[explode 1d10]+8
TN#15, 98.00%
TN#20, 83.50%
TN#25, 51.30%
TN#30, 20.35%

output 2d10+[explode 1d10]+7 (bulk 1)
TN#15, 96.50%
TN#20, 78.10%
TN#25, 44.25%
TN#30, 16.21%

At TN#15, 2%. TN#20, 5%. TN#25, 7% and TN#30, 4%. Similar distribution but the lower TNs are fairly 'automatic'.

So, about 1 in 20 rolls will notice the penalty for 'low' targets. The higher (25+) targets still require training to get even close.
Author:  Hat [ Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
Southernskies wrote:
Using http://anydice.com/ its easy enough to find. (summarized output):
<snip>
At TN#15, 2%. TN#20, 5%. TN#25, 7% and TN#30, 4%. Similar distribution but the lower TNs are fairly 'automatic'.

So, about 1 in 20 rolls will notice the penalty for 'low' targets. The higher (25+) targets still require training to get even close.


Good find. So every 20 rolls on average for impacted skills if the adjusted target is 20 points above all other modifiers. Those 20 are then divided by the number of mods required to get that many rolls where you have an impact. My gut says on average you might see a failed roll because of bulk every 4 or 5 mods. That may be too frequent with the exception of a few mods. I could be way off as it's just a guess.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  mininin [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
If bulk didn't make you fail a roll in 4 or 5 mods I'd just start ignoring it as it adds book keeping without impacting on the game. But for bulk 1 that seems fair in that the armour is not restrictive and so should rarely impact you but it should still do so occasionally.
Author:  Haakon_val'Ishi [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
I've been following this discussion with some interest. I have four primary characters, one from each archetype. I did this so I could compare each character to the other and see just how they play out as they advance. In general I am happy with my martial, Ursula. She contributed out of combat (even in social situations--although she's not the "diplo-monkey" that our friend Dave is). Combat is where she shines with an AR5 she can take a fair amount of damage and with a Tralian Hammer and a Might of 7 (soon to be 8) she can dish it out. One area I have seen less use of surprisingly is the martial techniques and weapon tricks. They all add clock ticks, and with a base speed of 6 (Heirloom weapon), it just makes more sense to go with basic attacks and put all my effort into things that increase my chances to hit when it's my turn. I do have Sweeping Strike which I use against minions, but I'm unsure about taking many more martial techniques. My clock spins enough as it is. Still that d10/d12 combo is useful to get through heavy AR. :). As always I welcome advice on how to improve my character's ability to contribute to success in a game.
Author:  toodeep [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
I've been following this discussion with some interest. I have four primary characters, one from each archetype. I did this so I could compare each character to the other and see just how they play out as they advance. In general I am happy with my martial, Ursula. She contributed out of combat (even in social situations--although she's not the "diplo-monkey" that our friend Dave is). Combat is where she shines with an AR5 she can take a fair amount of damage and with a Tralian Hammer and a Might of 7 (soon to be 8) she can dish it out. One area I have seen less use of surprisingly is the martial techniques and weapon tricks. They all add clock ticks, and with a base speed of 6 (Heirloom weapon), it just makes more sense to go with basic attacks and put all my effort into things that increase my chances to hit when it's my turn. I do have Sweeping Strike which I use against minions, but I'm unsure about taking many more martial techniques. My clock spins enough as it is. Still that d10/d12 combo is useful to get through heavy AR. :). As always I welcome advice on how to improve my character's ability to contribute to success in a game.


The big advantage I've seen with weapon tricks and maneuvers, is that when you combine for an advance maneuver (or combine with a smite) with a talent, they can often allow for a potential attack that will deliver a wound. The downside is that one often then doesn't go again for a very long time. The other useful application is two martials with maneuvers that applied push (like edge of the shield) teaming up against the big-bad and just reducing his chances to go to below an effective rate.
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