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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:49 am 
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Southernskies wrote:
Tangent. I've always wondered about that. Can you explain more about why Continued Training was banned? I suspect I'm missing something because I don't see what makes it so broken it needs to be banned.


IIRC there were several issues that sank it.

1) Some people thought it stole some of the mojo from the Expert Archetype. I suspect this line of objection would be dropped if the debates started again, but there were some posters who felt strongly about this at the time.
2) Depending on the background skills made available by the talent, it would then make it possible for the arcane and divine archetypes to gain 4 skill ranks (instead of 3) per tier in knowledge or social skills respectively. For some people this was a big deal, and I can see where an extra 5 ranks of Bluff or Knowledge "Everything" (with the talent Encyclopedic Knowledge) would be a major advantage.
3) The talent also granted 3+passive logic skill ranks upon taking it (including your Arcanum or Combat skill if you had the right background). Many people, including myself, thought this ranged from too generous to gratuitous. By way of comparison Sabatical potentially gives you your passive Logic in skills (and nothing else by way of future access).

IIRC there were also some other arguments based on misinformation about what it was supposed/alleged to do...it's was not clear to me that everyone sat down and really read what the heck it was all about in the "fine print."

I think The general idea of making your background more relevant to ongoing development was a good one, but my opinion is that the execution of that idea in this talent was half baked.

I believe it was banned because there was fierce opposition and no agreement on how to fix it. If you stridently took position #1 then the talent was just an "evil abomination" to begin with. Further the potential fixes to problems with #2 ("hey you know what, no matter how clever your build you get to raise your skills by 3 per tier barring paths...") were different from potential fixes to problems with #3 ("does it need extra skill ranks given? How many is enough...or too much"). And if you thought 2 and 3 both needed to be addressed then you were essentially rewriting the whole thing...

I believe it got banned for complexity and contentious more than "broken-ness." I do support the decision to ban. I have an idea for how I would water it down for possible inclusion if I ever do a home game.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:46 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 632
wilcoxon wrote:
Eric Hughes wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
I agree an Expert's ability to take Adaptable during step 1 is very useful to avoid falling behind. However, I don't see it as a problem because it is a tradeoff - it uses a talent (something Expert tends to always be short on) to offset lower skills.


EXPERTS SHORT ON TALENTS? Dude I've got so many Acturis took Linguist four times. Maybe if your experts are short on talents it is because you are trying too hard to mimic another archetype?


Try doing an effective Expert with casting and melee (and/or ranged). Not only do you have a ton of talents you likely want/need but you're archetype advancement (2 skill talents) doesn't apply to most of them so you are limited to the generic "any 2 talents" and "any 1 talent" advancements to get them (ASC/DSC, LMT, etc).

The Expert is more flexible and is generally easier to keep skill ranks up in both casting and combat but you definitely lose out on the talent advancements of other Archetypes.


Ah yes, that would render you short of talents. Acturis has no casting, and currently only has one martial technique which he picked up at Tier 2.2. I get away with that by heavy use of Distract Opponent in combat, and use of the mancatcher staff tricks. So, Actruis is the pen-ultimate skill monkey. Expert is great for that.

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There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:38 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1307
Perhaps with this discussion and the related it would be best to step back and evaluate the types of situations and encounters that a party encounters and what is required for success or to shine. I’d like to talk this independent of mapping to specific archetypes and to a certain extent mechanics, as I think it will make it easier to come to a consensus. For various tasks I’m tagging them as either solo or group. Solo means that it can be resolved by a single character. Group means all participants must succeed. Some activities are either or, in which case I list the more common one first. For example, sneaking around (moving silently and hiding) is typically a group activity as the entire party needs to get past the guards etc., but in some cases it makes more sense to have a single individual do it. To be clear, I don’t consider this a comprehensive list and am looking for others to help refine it. Combat’s a bit tricky to break down. As a whole it’s a group activity. There are roles within combat, but combat itself is a single task, succeed or fail.

The one other thing to try and factor in is the frequency at which different situations appear in the course of an adventure. I’m going to throw it out as All (all or nearly all mods), Most, Some, Rare. Individual situations may certainly trend lower than the category.

Social - Most
Negotiations – Solo
Deception – Solo
Gathering information – Solo
Distraction – Solo
Gain favor / trust – Solo
Inspire – Solo
Intimidate – Solo

Environmental / Travel - Some

Picking locks – Solo
Sneaking around – Group / Solo
Bypassing physical obstacles – walls, pits, fallen trees, etc. – Group / Solo
Wilderness survival – Solo / Group
Boat Travel – Solo / Group
Alertness – Solo / Group

Puzzle Solving - Most
Knowledge checks – Solo
Investigation / Research – Solo
Searching – Solo

Combat – All - Group

With the above these are the tasks / problems to overcome. Because of that there’s no specific task for magic for example. Magic is a means to an end. If you’re dealing with harsh weather conditions you could solve that with a spell or with a wilderness survival check. Once we have specific situations we can evaluate the mechanics required to succeed at them and then at which archetypes are best to utilize those specific mechanics.

I'll update the above with feedback.

So thoughts, suggestions?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:28 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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Location: Cajun Country
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
archangel wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


Agreed. As I said above, Advanced Armor Training is huge. It allows you to have an Exceptional normally-bulk 2 armor as bulk 0. Even a Ssressen can't get that high without being martial (Dragon Hide effectively gives you 1 bulk (-1 Avoidance) and Ssressen Scale Armor is bulk 1).

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:11 pm 
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@ Hat. A worthy idea and list. I'm ruminating. Will come back to this.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:17 pm 
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archangel wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


There are some ways around this...most notably with a Ssressen character. For example Expert/Divine/Arcane + Black Talon + Dragon Hide + Ssressen Scale (light armor) + either Squire or Royal Marine backgrounds equals an AR of 6 at start and no bulk.

But martial (advanced armor training) and heirloom certainly gets you there more easily and in greater diversity (for those gamers who prefer playing mammals).

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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Location: Cajun Country
val Holryn wrote:
archangel wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


There are some ways around this...most notably with a Ssressen character. For example Expert/Divine/Arcane + Black Talon + Dragon Hide + Ssressen Scale (light armor) + either Squire or Royal Marine backgrounds equals an AR of 6 at start and no bulk.

But martial (advanced armor training) and heirloom certainly gets you there more easily and in greater diversity (for those gamers who prefer playing mammals).

I get the Royal marine gets rid of most of the penalty, but not sure what squire is bringing to the table to help reduce the penalty.

edit: never mind I went looking for the errata and found why Squire works.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
archangel wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


There are some ways around this...most notably with a Ssressen character. For example Expert/Divine/Arcane + Black Talon + Dragon Hide + Ssressen Scale (light armor) + either Squire or Royal Marine backgrounds equals an AR of 6 at start and no bulk.

But martial (advanced armor training) and heirloom certainly gets you there more easily and in greater diversity (for those gamers who prefer playing mammals).


Not really. Dragon Hide effectively gives you 1 bulk that can't be negated (-1 Avoidance).

What does Royal Marine background give you for this build?

I've never been fond of Squire background. Other than Advanced Armor Training, other backgrounds are much better (unless you want to go one of the Knight Paths, then Squire is useful).

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1307
wilcoxon wrote:
archangel wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is the Martial archetype is the only way to get 0 bulk on armor. So you can easily have AR 3 or 4 for a talent or even free with the right background.


Agreed. As I said above, Advanced Armor Training is huge. It allows you to have an Exceptional normally-bulk 2 armor as bulk 0. Even a Ssressen can't get that high without being martial (Dragon Hide effectively gives you 1 bulk (-1 Avoidance) and Ssressen Scale Armor is bulk 1).


The penalty for bulk is -1 Avoidance, -5 Pace. 5 Gc Fine Celerity rune fixes the second problem. 1 point of Avoidance is nice. Better than yawn worthy but far from any sort of make or break. What am I missing here?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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