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Fixing the Martial Archtype http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2117 |
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Author: | Eric Hughes [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Fixing the Martial Archtype |
On and off there has been discussions about how to "fix" the marshal archetype to make it more attractive and bring it in line with Divine, and Expert in perceived power. I was thinking on this afternoon, and I realized -why- it seems the other three archetypes are more powerful, and subsequently more attractive. Then it hit me. The reason Arcane and Divine are perceived as more powerful, is -spell casting-. I know not a big realization. But why is spell casting so powerful? It is because, for Arcane/Divine spell casting talent, you get a buy one get five discount. The marshal character must buy each of his abilities on a one-talent, one technique basis. But spell casters pay one talent and get five spells. If you think about it.... That is huge! I argue that the 'simple fix' for the marshal archtype is to the marshal character the same talent-ability economy that Divine and Arcane casters have with a single new talent. --- Marshal Mastery (Limited - Marshal Archetype only, Tiered) You learn five marshal techniques of your choice, each of which are of your current tier or lower. You must meet the prerequisites of each marshal technique so chosen. --- Compared to the spellcasting talents this provides the same talent-ability economy without substantially changing the nature of any of the archetype's. As with "Learn Spell" you can buy still more martial techniques with "Learn Martial Technique". Also, experts, divine, and arcane can still 'dabble' in combat methods under current rules as there is no special access for LMT. Thoughts? Comments? |
Author: | wilcoxon [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
I think 5 is too many and am not sure that Martial needs a change. Martial already gets "two combat talents" and "two martial techniques" as advancement options. Based on all the characters I've made (well over a dozen for myself plus over half a dozen for other people), I think the archetypes are (at least for the way I build characters):
At most, I would change the Martial advancement option from two martial techniques to three. |
Author: | Southernskies [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
Five is definitely too much (there aren't that many LMT compared to available spells). an extra LMT in the advancement would be nice. I know I struggle to get all the LMT I would like, as I am trying to advance spellcasting at the same time. The (poor options) balance issues with the Divine advancements are a bigger problem that needs addressing first. |
Author: | acurrier [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
I play two martial characters and have never felt underpowered or limited. The casting classes certainly gain more flexibility with their spell options (compared to the number of martial techniques most martial characters have), but combined with weapon tricks, I think it is reasonable. I've never personally felt there was a need to 'fix' the martial archetype. |
Author: | Eric Hughes [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
Wow. I was concerned too many folks felt the other way. Givem how quickly i got both responses and what appears to be concensous, I guess things really are fine as they are. |
Author: | Nierite [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
My secondary is a Martial, and the only thing 'holding him back' in mods I've found is that the few times I've played him he is half a tier below the table. Even then, he acquits himself well. |
Author: | val Holryn [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
While we're kibitzing about archetypes again... I think it's Arcane that is underpowered and needs fixing. Maybe if the Arcane archetype casters got to subtract 1 strain from the spells they cast we'd see more. As it is IME most true casters are actually built from the expert archetype. Expert is probably the archetype I see the most. Not sure if it's too powerful or not. Tukufu is essentially a true caster (psion) with the expert archetype. Talents are really (really) tight. My path choices are critical mechanically. Skills are beautiful. Martial is fine IMO. Divine, like arcane maybe needs some help. Though I like divine more than arcane (get a rank of melee at creation, I like generally social skills more than knowledge skills, and some very cool devout talents). Might make sense to link (some? Many?) devout talents to the archetype. Divine does suffer that it's a lot easier to back doors into its mojo through: Initiate of the gods, Templar & Sword Saint |
Author: | val Holryn [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
I do agree that ASC and DSC are the most powerful talents in the game by a landslide. Against that, 2 things. One: generally magic only does tactical things in A:RPG. That puts it on closer parity with swinging a sword. Two: it's really really hard to have anything looking like "efficient clock management" by just spell casting. Most people IME don't want to play a "pure" caster. In practice you also need to be able to "swing a sword" (or otherwise DO something with a weapon). Net result? I don't see an over abundance of "wizards" even though the talent is super awesome. |
Author: | val Holryn [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
I cringe a little to write this since Tukufu relies on it for his build, but the Experts ability to take the "adaptable" talent at step 1 of creation is a dirt cheap "work around" to escape the biggest drawback of the archetype ... The inability to take combat or arcanum skills in the archetype phase of character creation. I think if this one thing were changed we'd see a crash in the population of PC experts. I believe Expert is currently the most popular choice of archetype in the player base. |
Author: | wilcoxon [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype |
Right now, I'm actively playing 3 characters. Ss'kethis is Ssressen Expert/Templar G'hyu'thyh is Kio Martial/Templar Eryk is val'Holryn Martial/Undisciplined Psion unnamed (new char in home game) is Arcane (Eldritch)/Veteran of Altherian War Other characters I made for myself and 2 other people in the home game are: Undir Expert/Shaman Initiate val'Ossan Martial/Undisciplined Psion Ssressen Martial/Templar Elorii Expert/Soldier of Retribution - heading to Tal Kannath Elorii Arcane/Soldier of Retribution - alt version of previous val'Emman Expert/Undisciplined Psion val'Emman Arcane/Templar - alt version of the previous Ghost Scale Expert/Shaman Initiate So, out of my active characters and ones I just created for people, that's: Archetype: 5 Expert, 4 Martial, and 3 Arcane Background: 4 Templar, 3 Undisciplined Psion, 2 Shaman Initiate, 3 other military Clearly, I heavily favor hybrid caster/physical combat in characters I create. I think the biggest thing that hurts Arcane and, especially, Divine Archetypes is how easy it is to get Divine Spell Casting or Arcane Spell Casting (except Eldritch and Elder) by taking a simple Background (although Undisciplined Psion has some additional restrictions that slow it down some). |
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