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 Post subject: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 632
On and off there has been discussions about how to "fix" the marshal archetype to make it more attractive and bring it in line with Divine, and Expert in perceived power. I was thinking on this afternoon, and I realized -why- it seems the other three archetypes are more powerful, and subsequently more attractive. Then it hit me. The reason Arcane and Divine are perceived as more powerful, is -spell casting-. I know not a big realization. But why is spell casting so powerful? It is because, for Arcane/Divine spell casting talent, you get a buy one get five discount.

The marshal character must buy each of his abilities on a one-talent, one technique basis. But spell casters pay one talent and get five spells. If you think about it.... That is huge!

I argue that the 'simple fix' for the marshal archtype is to the marshal character the same talent-ability economy that Divine and Arcane casters have with a single new talent.

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Marshal Mastery (Limited - Marshal Archetype only, Tiered)

You learn five marshal techniques of your choice, each of which are of your current tier or lower. You must meet the prerequisites of each marshal technique so chosen.

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Compared to the spellcasting talents this provides the same talent-ability economy without substantially changing the nature of any of the archetype's. As with "Learn Spell" you can buy still more martial techniques with "Learn Martial Technique". Also, experts, divine, and arcane can still 'dabble' in combat methods under current rules as there is no special access for LMT.

Thoughts? Comments?

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---
Eric Hughes

There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
I think 5 is too many and am not sure that Martial needs a change.

Martial already gets "two combat talents" and "two martial techniques" as advancement options.

Based on all the characters I've made (well over a dozen for myself plus over half a dozen for other people), I think the archetypes are (at least for the way I build characters):
  1. Expert - by far the most versatile archetype (but you do generally give up one rank in combat or arcanum skills vs another archetype)
  2. Martial - Advanced Armor Training is huge and two different advancement options giving two combat-related talents is nice as well
  3. Arcane - I only use Arcane if I want an Elder or Eldritch caster or, more rarely, a full Psionic caster from creation
  4. Divine - I have never built a Divine archetype character that I didn't like better as an Expert

At most, I would change the Martial advancement option from two martial techniques to three.

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 899
Five is definitely too much (there aren't that many LMT compared to available spells).

an extra LMT in the advancement would be nice. I know I struggle to get all the LMT I would like, as I am trying to advance spellcasting at the same time.

The (poor options) balance issues with the Divine advancements are a bigger problem that needs addressing first.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.1
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 4
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


Last edited by Southernskies on Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:59 am
Posts: 811
Location: Ontario, Canada
I play two martial characters and have never felt underpowered or limited. The casting classes certainly gain more flexibility with their spell options (compared to the number of martial techniques most martial characters have), but combined with weapon tricks, I think it is reasonable.

I've never personally felt there was a need to 'fix' the martial archetype.

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Akira Currier
aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.6)
aka Leif of House Borghild - Skohir Human Myrmidon (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik of Nol Dappa - Dwarven War Priest (Divine 2.3)


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 632
Wow. I was concerned too many folks felt the other way. Givem how quickly i got both responses and what appears to be concensous, I guess things really are fine as they are.

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---
Eric Hughes

There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 am
Posts: 2467
Location: Central Alberta
My secondary is a Martial, and the only thing 'holding him back' in mods I've found is that the few times I've played him he is half a tier below the table. Even then, he acquits himself well.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1958
Location: Portland OR
While we're kibitzing about archetypes again...

I think it's Arcane that is underpowered and needs fixing. Maybe if the Arcane archetype casters got to subtract 1 strain from the spells they cast we'd see more. As it is IME most true casters are actually built from the expert archetype.

Expert is probably the archetype I see the most. Not sure if it's too powerful or not. Tukufu is essentially a true caster (psion) with the expert archetype. Talents are really (really) tight. My path choices are critical mechanically. Skills are beautiful.

Martial is fine IMO.

Divine, like arcane maybe needs some help. Though I like divine more than arcane (get a rank of melee at creation, I like generally social skills more than knowledge skills, and some very cool devout talents). Might make sense to link (some? Many?) devout talents to the archetype. Divine does suffer that it's a lot easier to back doors into its mojo through: Initiate of the gods, Templar & Sword Saint

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1958
Location: Portland OR
I do agree that ASC and DSC are the most powerful talents in the game by a landslide.

Against that, 2 things.

One: generally magic only does tactical things in A:RPG. That puts it on closer parity with swinging a sword.

Two: it's really really hard to have anything looking like "efficient clock management" by just spell casting. Most people IME don't want to play a "pure" caster. In practice you also need to be able to "swing a sword" (or otherwise DO something with a weapon).

Net result? I don't see an over abundance of "wizards" even though the talent is super awesome.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1958
Location: Portland OR
I cringe a little to write this since Tukufu relies on it for his build, but the Experts ability to take the "adaptable" talent at step 1 of creation is a dirt cheap "work around" to escape the biggest drawback of the archetype ... The inability to take combat or arcanum skills in the archetype phase of character creation.

I think if this one thing were changed we'd see a crash in the population of PC experts.

I believe Expert is currently the most popular choice of archetype in the player base.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing the Martial Archtype
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1036
Right now, I'm actively playing 3 characters.

Ss'kethis is Ssressen Expert/Templar
G'hyu'thyh is Kio Martial/Templar
Eryk is val'Holryn Martial/Undisciplined Psion
unnamed (new char in home game) is Arcane (Eldritch)/Veteran of Altherian War

Other characters I made for myself and 2 other people in the home game are:
Undir Expert/Shaman Initiate
val'Ossan Martial/Undisciplined Psion
Ssressen Martial/Templar
Elorii Expert/Soldier of Retribution - heading to Tal Kannath
Elorii Arcane/Soldier of Retribution - alt version of previous
val'Emman Expert/Undisciplined Psion
val'Emman Arcane/Templar - alt version of the previous
Ghost Scale Expert/Shaman Initiate

So, out of my active characters and ones I just created for people, that's:
Archetype: 5 Expert, 4 Martial, and 3 Arcane
Background: 4 Templar, 3 Undisciplined Psion, 2 Shaman Initiate, 3 other military

Clearly, I heavily favor hybrid caster/physical combat in characters I create.

I think the biggest thing that hurts Arcane and, especially, Divine Archetypes is how easy it is to get Divine Spell Casting or Arcane Spell Casting (except Eldritch and Elder) by taking a simple Background (although Undisciplined Psion has some additional restrictions that slow it down some).

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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