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 Post subject: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:19 pm 

Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 11:53 pm
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Hey folks --

Are Wilders restricted to the Tradition of the spell granted by their original Spontaneously Awakened talent? They cannot take Arcane Spell Casting before or after embarking on the Wilder path, and Learn Spell is strictly restricted to known Traditions.

For that matter, Spontaneously Awakened doesn't grant access to Traditions the way ASC does. Does that leave a Wilder unable to take Learn Spell at all? Perhaps they have access to all the (appropriately tiered) spells the Psionic source provides?

This question applies to Rudimentary Prayers + Learn Spell as well, although a character using that sequence can at least take DSC to make their access explicit.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:05 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
If you do not gain A/DSC, you only have access to a single tradition. All the 'entryway' talents like Spontaneously Awakened (Ta) grant you a choice of one spell from several traditions IIRC. You can then take Learn Spell (ta) after that, but only in that tradition.

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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Thinking about it, I can see that in the rules. However, it is extremely frustrating as it nearly forces characters to take ASC even if it doesn't really fit. I created a new Spontaneously Awakened char for play on Myth Weavers and was considering just taking Learn Spell to gain a spell here and there as it seemed to fit the char better than ASC but the spells are in different traditions so I'm forced to take ASC (which is more talent efficient anyway - it just doesn't fit the char as well in my mind).

Would it really hurt anything if Spontaneously Awakened (and possibly Rudimentary XXX) gave access to extra traditions for purposes of Learn Spell (something along the lines of choose a primary and two secondary traditions but only gain a single spell from primary but be treated as "knowing" a spell from the secondaries)?

More generously, would it hurt anything if Learn Spell let you take a spell from any tradition you have access to (not just those you already know)?

The current rules definitely make the Wilder path an extremely subpar choice for almost all characters (you're stuck with a single tradition forever).

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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:09 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
wilcoxon wrote:
Would it really hurt anything if Spontaneously Awakened (and possibly Rudimentary XXX) gave access to extra traditions for purposes of Learn Spell (something along the lines of choose a primary and two secondary traditions but only gain a single spell from primary but be treated as "knowing" a spell from the secondaries)?


If that is what you want, why don't you just take A/DSC? The Rudimentary XXXX and Spontaneously Awakened represent people with either incomplete educations in spellcasting or who 'awaken' to it. If you want to be trained in multiple Traditions, then you have to be TRAINED in multiple traditions, and that is represented in the game by the A/DSC talents.


Quote:
More generously, would it hurt anything if Learn Spell let you take a spell from any tradition you have access to (not just those you already know)?


But you only have access to the one. If you want access to more, you have to burn the talents for it. If you could just mix and match without care for traditions, then there is no point for the Traditions in the first place.

Simply put, if you want to be a well rounded caster, you can't just pick up a couple night course and 'take levels in wizard'. Spell casting is a vocation in itself.

Quote:
The current rules definitely make the Wilder path an extremely subpar choice for almost all characters (you're stuck with a single tradition forever).


Well, Wilder's don't exist in this system. That is a D&Dism right here and only slightly relates to Arcanis canon in this incarnation. For Spontaneously Awakened characters, the Tradition they learn represents the total of what they have discovered within themselves. If you have never 'experienced' a Control Tradition without any formal education, how do you expect to unlock it? Magic is practice more than it is instinct.

If you are talking about sub-par, remember that not all character ideas have to be 'equal'. Some are better ideas than other, and in this system the "wilder" as you discribe simply isn't the mechanically best. That said, I FULLY intend on going this path with my Martial val'Vasik as the Heritage Spell for them are pretty sweet!

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Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
Nierite wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
Would it really hurt anything if Spontaneously Awakened (and possibly Rudimentary XXX) gave access to extra traditions for purposes of Learn Spell (something along the lines of choose a primary and two secondary traditions but only gain a single spell from primary but be treated as "knowing" a spell from the secondaries)?


If that is what you want, why don't you just take A/DSC? The Rudimentary XXXX and Spontaneously Awakened represent people with either incomplete educations in spellcasting or who 'awaken' to it. If you want to be trained in multiple Traditions, then you have to be TRAINED in multiple traditions, and that is represented in the game by the A/DSC talents.


Because Prestidigitation/ASC represents formal training. Given that Traditions are all about training, why would someone without formal training end up with spells from only one Tradition? It doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't a Spontaneously Awakened caster end up with "random" spells?


Nierite wrote:
Quote:
More generously, would it hurt anything if Learn Spell let you take a spell from any tradition you have access to (not just those you already know)?


But you only have access to the one. If you want access to more, you have to burn the talents for it. If you could just mix and match without care for traditions, then there is no point for the Traditions in the first place.


Yes but it's well-established that there are casters that learn spells without training (and are generally looked down on for it). Explain to me why they would be limited to a specific Tradition (eg way of learning/teaching)?

Nierite wrote:
Quote:
The current rules definitely make the Wilder path an extremely subpar choice for almost all characters (you're stuck with a single tradition forever).


Well, Wilder's don't exist in this system. That is a D&Dism right here and only slightly relates to Arcanis canon in this incarnation. For Spontaneously Awakened characters, the Tradition they learn represents the total of what they have discovered within themselves. If you have never 'experienced' a Control Tradition without any formal education, how do you expect to unlock it? Magic is practice more than it is instinct.


Umm. What do you mean Wilders don't exist in the system? We have Spontaneously Awakened which are wilders in D&D terms. Then we have the Wilder path which is even moreso.

I disagree. Nothing in the rules I've read indicates that Spontaneously Awakened have been formally trained in magic. Why would someone not trained in magic figure out things within a single Tradition as opposed to spells from "random" Traditions?

If I missed anything in the rulebooks, please point it out.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Last edited by wilcoxon on Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
From a mechanical standpoint, Prest/ASC is almost always more talent efficient than Learn Spell anyway. If someone wants to go the inefficient route for character reasons because it fits the character better, why not allow it? Why force all casters to learn exactly the same way? The system clearly has "wilders" with no formal magic education so why force them into ASC?

ASC gives you 5 spells at tier 1 and 4 per tier thereafter while Learn Spell gives a single spell each talent.

Why artificially limit concepts that are mechanically disadvantaged already?

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Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
I agree that some of the tradition limitation wording is questionable. As far as I can tell, you can choose three traditions at tier I spellcasting, and then choose another three (not necessarily all the same) in a later tier. You now have spells in all traditions, so I assume you are trained in them all for the purposes of the learn spell talent.

Personally, I think if you are taking learn spell instead of A/DSC it is so sub-optimal powerwise, that it should be as easy characterwise as possible. The only caveat I would require is that you know a spell of the tier below the one you are taking from the same source. That way to get a tier IV spell, you must have taken Learn spell I, II, and III - which is just as expensive as A/DSC I-II-III. No buy one tier IV spell for the cost of one talent.

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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:52 am 
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Location: Portland OR
wilcoxon wrote:
Would it really hurt anything if Spontaneously Awakened (and possibly Rudimentary XXX) gave access to extra traditions for purposes of Learn Spell (something along the lines of choose a primary and two secondary traditions but only gain a single spell from primary but be treated as "knowing" a spell from the secondaries)?

Probably not. Like Cody I don't immediately see any problems from a game balance issue. In a home campaign I think I'd let this fly. I'm particularly fine with a wilder who doesn't have ASC 1 but wants to reach out to spells from different traditions.

BUT...
wilcoxon wrote:
Why artificially limit concepts that are mechanically disadvantaged already?

Because its a Living Campaign and not a Home Game. And they have different strengths and weaknesses. Living Campaigns have a lot of benefits, not least pooling the talents, time and energy of multiple authors and GMs... & making possible special events that gathers multiple tables worth of players that are united in purpose, such as BIs or Special Events. Against that you loose some flexibility because you can't have individuals reinterpreting rules for corner cases. That has to come from the campaign staff.

There is apparently new crunch being assembled for the Blessed Lands Book. Write a proposal and submit it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wilders and Learn Spell
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:51 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Let me start with the mechanical aspect first as that's the area that's gotten virtually all the focus so far.

First, you may change the 3 traditions you take at each tier, granting access to the other tradition(s) starting at Tier II. Adding the extra tradition(s) though is a trade-off in terms of spell selection. The Sorcerer Priests of Sarish must have Blood as one of their traditions each Tier, so to have access to all 5 would forgo selecting either of the other two when they take ASC.

Rules that permit someone from gaining access to a new tradition should be limited talents. As a standard talent the limitations on traditions for all casters are meaningless. ASC/DSC have minimum attribute requirements to take. Learn Spell does not. ASC/DSC also requires prestidigitation which has it's own requirement of 3 ranks in a Lore skill and again Learn Spell does not. As a character advances in Tier they can use Learn Spell to take a new spell of a tier they're at, provided I believe they have a spell at each Tier below them. As it already stands a character with a 1 attribute could get to a Tier IV spell within a single tradition. Eliminating the tradition barriers means being able to cherry-pick the best 4 or 5 spells at minimal effort or cost. The argument about sub-par only applies when compared against a full caster and ignores the trade-offs in meeting the other requirements.

Now there's also the story / world aspect to consider. Arcanis works differently than D&D and the foundations for it's magic are different as well.

I don't see a reasonable justification that if someone who is completely untrained can manage to trigger a particular spell effect in a tradition, that they can build on that to do something completely different.

Think of access to a tradition as a set of similar items that share a common base. It's easier to learn variations on a theme than something completely different. With the spontaneous awakening there is a triggering event and that event is important enough to be an entire Path.

Especially given that the RPG is built to support a specific world/cosmology, the mechanics should support that first and then be as reasonably balanced as possible.

If I was running a home campaign and a player expressed an interest in something like this I would consider it. If I allowed it though I'd likely require significant RP and effort on the player's part during the game to help justify the selection.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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