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 Post subject: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:04 pm 
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This was brought up at Origins so I wanted to post it here...

One creature (Creature A) uses "Challenge" on another creature (Creature B). Another creature (Creature C) casts "Enemy of my Enemy" on Creature B and dictates they are attack Creature D.

What takes precedence?
1) Challenge: Because it was used first and any subsequent 'control' effects are ignored for the duration
2) Enemy of my Enemy: Because it was used last and the last 'control' effect takes precedent for its duration.

I don't think it makes sense to try and build a 'priority' of all the different ways to force an opponent to attack, so I think a general rule needs made:

A) The first 'control' effect applied remains for its duration or until its conditions are fulfilled. Subsequent 'control' effects are blocked / unsuccessful.
B) The last 'control' effect applied suppresses any previous effect for the new effect's duration or until its conditions are fulfilled. Then if the previous effect(s) have remaining duration after this, they return in the order of last applied.
C) The last 'control' effect applied cancels any previous effect and the new effect remains for its duration or until its conditions are fulfilled and then the target is free and clear again.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:11 pm 

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My belief is option A is the right one. If you're looking for precedence within the system consider situations where you get a new push effect. The original one holds and you can't be affected by the new one until the original one ends.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:17 pm 
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Hat wrote:
My belief is option A is the right one. If you're looking for precedence within the system consider situations where you get a new push effect. The original one holds and you can't be affected by the new one until the original one ends.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


The Push argument isn't completely accurate. If you're under Push 3 and then get hit by a Push 5, you are now at Push 5 instead of Push 8 (As the longest takes effect). If you're already ticked down 2 ticks of Push 3 and get hit by a new Push 5, you are now at Push 5 but only have 3 ticks remaining (Page 318)

I also worry that A) could set up some ways to 'block' control spells by bending certain rules. I don't know what those are off the top of my head, but I'm sure clever players might come up with some.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:39 pm 

Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 6:46 am
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I would actually make a specific ruling here and not an overarching one.

Challenge isn't control. The skill check used to issue the challenge represents you making yourself enough of a threat/nuisance that the creature voluntarily decides to focus on you (it's involuntary from a Chronicler perspective, but voluntary from the creature's perspective). It's not a control effect because the creature is choosing to focus on you.

Enemy of My Enemy, however, is taking the choice away from the creature. I would say the magic of the spell overrides any compulsion that Challenge inflicts, because Challenge isn't magical at all. It's just you being annoying.

If you want a generalized Control vs. Control ruling, I would say that the two casters need to make some sort of check to see whose effect takes priority over the other's. Maybe an opposed Arcanum (Cha) check, and if one caster's commands match the Controlled creature's nature, that would grant a bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:49 am 

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Enemy of My Enemy does not control the target. It fogs the target's perception, either externally (Illusion tradition) or internally (Control tradition). As such when a target that has been Challenged gets affected with Enemy of My Enemy, the target losing sight of the challenger, and everyone else, and sees a target that convincingly must be immediately vanquished.

The only question left would be the target that was under the effect of Challenge has Challenge suspended or ending when affected by Enemy of My Enemy. It would be like waking from a daydream.

Although if EoME is casted from the Control tradition, odds are that Challenge would have ended normally before the target gets hit with the spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:34 am 

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IMHO, I don't think an official ruling is needed. Generally speaking, we try and only make those in cases where spells/talents/etc show a significant imbalance. (e.g. the wording of Helpless/Solidify Water)

That being said, EoME is designed to make an ally seem like an enemy and cause you to attack him/her/it. Challenge persuades a target that you are a significant threat and must attack you. Their are arguments that Challenge should supercede because of stronger wording; as well as just as strong counterarguments that EoME is magic and that magic is stronger than persuasion.

How do you determine which player's ability is more important?

My suggestion is this:
1) Use smart table tactics and do not EoME someone an ally has challenged (and vice-versa)
2) If a conflict does occur, leave it up to the table judge to determine how the conflict resolves (hopefully, with an emphasis on what tells a better story). Possible answers could be to resolve the effects based on order of occurance or "suspending" the 12 Ticks to resolve EoME (and then resume the Challenge).

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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:47 am 
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One point to make: Challenge in no way forces the target to attack the challenger. It says they are viewed as a threat and as such the target can attack, direct others to attack, etc. It also mentions that the target will not put themselves at harm unless simple minded. EoME specifically says the target will cause harm to themselves and must attack with great prejudice. That is one reason I would feel the spell would override the challenge until the conditions are met. In addition, a target under challenge could direct others to attack the challenger while making their own attack against the target of EoME. Given the relative speed and opportunity costs to the "caster" over the challenger, it also seems likely EoME should do more.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Harliquinn wrote:
One point to make: Challenge in no way forces the target to attack the challenger. It says they are viewed as a threat and as such the target can attack, direct others to attack, etc. <snip>


So we're operating off the same page, let's use the text.

Challenge
"If successful, the target considers you a significant threat and attacks you for the next 12 Ticks. This does not mean that your target will always blindly charge forth disregarding their own safety (unless the target is particularly simple minded); how the target attacks you is their choice. For example, they may command others to attach you, use a missile weapon, or simply charge."

The wording is very clear that the target of the challenge MUST attack you. If the target of the challenge doesn't have others to order about and must find a way to attack the challenger directly, then there is a direct conflict between two mind affecting abilities.

I'm fine with Matt's suggestion to leave it to the GM at the table. I've started asking in advance for whether there are any rules that need clarification before we start for this kind of thing. I also agree that it's poor tactics to target a single target with both effects. As a GM I'd be find reminding the 2nd PC of the effect already in place and asking if they want a different target or a different action.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:23 pm 
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Just noted an easy resolution to this one.

CoH pg 161 wrote:
the battle between Shadow and Light Conflicting spell effects…

When spells with conflicting effects affect the same area or target, the caster of the second spell must succeed in an Arcanum Action Skill Roll against the original caster’s Passive Arcanum value. For example, if a caster attempts to cast Enemy of my Enemy and order that target to attack someone they were tasked to defend by way of Thrall, the caster of Enemy of my Enemy is required to perform an Arcanum Action Skill Roll against the original caster’s Passive Arcanum value.


Instead of pArcanum, make the TN# the passive value of the skill used.

For Challenge (ta), this would be passive Persuasion (Ch) or Intimidate (Ch).

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 Post subject: Re: Challenge (Talent) vs. Enemy of my Enemy (Spell)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:32 am 
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I like it!

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- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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