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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
Posts: 208
Rules as written Rebuke, Channeling, and Shield of Enduring Will all provoke.
Just because you think they shouldn't has no bearing on the truth.

There are numerous other spells in the book that just have a range without the words Radius, or 1 target, basically no other description listed. You don't expect to change the rule on all of them do you?
Here is a short list from going through the book Call of the Hunt, Call of the Wild, Celerity, Construct Guardian, Crimson Feast, Detect Unnatural Creatures, and many more.

They all provoke because they are not Self, Melee, or 0'.

Having the word Radius after the range in Rebuke, Channel and Shield of Enduring Will, means nothing to the rules on provoking. Call of the Hunt is a heal/buff spell that works off a Radius as well just like Channeling, and it provokes.

If a caster were to place Black Ice [30' (5' Radius)] centered on themselves no one would be saying "hey that doesn't provoke because they are not sending the spell away from them." It is considered a ranged spell and therefore provokes.

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:21 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Sigh. If they provoke or not is the entire debate. Just as they don't not provoke because I don't think they should, they also don't provoke simply because you think they should. I was not the only one in the other thread that thought they do not provoke.

All of the spells you list provoke because they are ranged. All of the spells/abilities I listed earlier in this thread are not ranged - they are pbaoe.

Call of the Hunt is an odd duck. I honestly don't know what to make of that one. It is written up as a normal ranged spell but says it affects all allies in range (I don't recall seeing any other spell written this way). Given the range of 30' and the odd way it is written, I would agree this one provokes.

Please explain to me how X' Radius is different than Self/0' (X' Radius). I have yet to see anyone give an answer (beyond "they don't say 0' or Self" which seems way more likely to be a simple typo omission than an intentional significant difference (we're up to 31 pages of Errata/FAQ after all)).

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:08 am 
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pbaoe??

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:51 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:06 am 
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Don't you just love jargon....not. That's new one on me. Bet it's a carryover from computer games since the aoe thing I now recall from WoW along with the infamous "dot" references.

To honest as far as I can recall (based on the "spirit" of gaming), any casting done within melee range of a bad guy is gonna get you smacked. All that hand waving and abracadabra business distracts you from the deadly serious business of defending yourself. Am I wrong in thinking that? Just curious about my thinking here.

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:32 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
Don't you just love jargon....not. That's new one on me. Bet it's a carryover from computer games since the aoe thing I now recall from WoW along with the infamous "dot" references.


I don't remember if I ran across it first in computer or tabletop (likely computer). I've seen it used in both.

Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
To honest as far as I can recall (based on the "spirit" of gaming), any casting done within melee range of a bad guy is gonna get you smacked. All that hand waving and abracadabra business distracts you from the deadly serious business of defending yourself. Am I wrong in thinking that? Just curious about my thinking here.


There are exceptions. Any spells with range of Self, 0', or Melee does not provoke free strikes. Logically and spell effect, "X' Radius" is no different than "Self (X' Radius)" but it doesn't explicitly have 0' or Self so some people think these spells provoke (while others, like me, think they don't).

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:22 am 
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I found back in the 80s when I wrote a BattleTech mod for FASA that writing the fluff was easy and fun, writing rules that were clearly understood by all damn difficult. What seems to be crystal clear to the game designer often is confusing to the unwashed masses. Otherwise there would be no need for errata. :) Even computer games have innumerable patches (yes I'm looking at you SWTOR... ;) ) Just out of curiosity has any of the PCI staff weighed in on this, even to explain the spirit behind the rules here? BTW I do agree with Josh on one thing, Arcanis combats should be fast and furious (or at least as we can be with the "clock"). As a general rule I prefer to tell a "story" with combat rather than getting too bogged down with the rules. Unless you are really stupid, or want to go out in a blaze of glory I won't kill your character no matter what the darn dice say. Maiming...well maybe. :) Still bummed out I didn't get a cool scar or phobia from the last BI. Got to work harder on that. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:53 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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No one from PCI has weighed in as yet.

I agree combats should be fast and furious.

My main contention is that combat spells need to actually be useful in combat (attack spells with range 5' Radius are completely useless if they provoke free strikes - even 10' Radius are marginal at best (given that there are plenty of pbaoe attack spells that don't provoke and ranged attack spells allow attacking from a safe distance)). My secondary contention is that there is logically absolutely no difference between X' Radius, Self (X' Radius), and 0' (X' Radius) so I completely fail to see why X' Radius should provoke (yes, 0' can be extended via adaptation but they are identical besides that).

I did consider that the Radius may have been the error and these spells should be like Call of the Hunt (ranged but affect all targets within range). However, I seriously doubt that as these spells have radius ranges (5', 10', and rarely 20') while ranged spells almost always have multiples of 30' for a range.

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:37 am
Posts: 121
Location: Leeds, England
Hi all,

There is one critical thing that you have missed in this discussion... which is that without the 'range' of the effects being specified, they are actually useless from a rules perspective. So, yes this was an oversight.

Not wanting to delve into the specifics of each and every spell that has been listed, instead, I will give you a general ruling (and yes, treat this as an official ruling; if someone could also link this into other threads where appropriate that would be excellent as well).

Any spell whose descriptive block contains a Range entry that specifies an area effect, but which does not specify a range at which this area can be targeted, should be assumed to have a range of self. For example, the Rebuke spell, has a radius of 10', whose targeting location is self; despite the self not being explicit in the textual description of the spell.*

* This only applies to spells that affect an area; furthermore, specific errata to individual spells that contradicts the above takes precedence over this general errata entry.

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 Post subject: Re: Do spells with range like 10' Radius provoke?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:21 pm 
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Just found an unintended consequence. This is not necessarily a problem as it gives Martials some new options.

All the discussed spells can now by placed on a shield using the Spell Rune.

I actually like this find, as (once I can afford it) it gives me a more reliable option to deal with minion hordes.

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