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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Tangent... Is the "Unarmed" listed under Pin the Unarmed category or specifically the Unarmed "weapon"? I've always treated it as any attack using the Melee (Unarmed) skill but, rereading it, I'm not clear on the intent.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:47 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Tangent... Is the "Unarmed" listed under Pin the Unarmed category or specifically the Unarmed "weapon"? I've always treated it as any attack using the Melee (Unarmed) skill but, rereading it, I'm not clear on the intent.


I've always understood it to be the Unarmed skill, not the weapon; either true unarmed, cestus, gauntlet, natural weapons, etc, would apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:47 pm 
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Hood wrote:
The ability of the wolf/dog is not a general "grapple", it is a "grab", which has it's own special rules on P. 310.


Players wanting to use this ability should take careful note of how the attack works.

Grab attack using Bite at Speed 5 (which does no damage, as per the Grab Attack Option)
IF the attack hits, you can choose to immediately deal your Base Die in damage (NOT the full bite damage).

After that, normal grapple rules apply (so Pin, then Punish). A total of 15 ticks to do damage twice (but the target is in trouble at that point).

Its not the greatest ability, unless you are in position to take advantage of that initial Grab.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:40 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks for all of the replies. They help, but let me summarise -

A quality riding horse has the Exceptional Specimen (Bestiary p43) Variation. Is there a reference for this? I didn't find it. Although it sounds reasonable and a quality riding hose is 5 times the normal cost.

As for NAR 2 for horses, the horse presented in the ARG doesn't match those presented in the Bestiary. From what I read, a Threat (Creature) should have Traits equal to 2x Tier + 1 for a Flaw. The horses in the bestiary have this, but those in the ARG do not. Typically the horses in the Bestiary have Natural Armor as a trait, which gives them NAR 2. I think the horses in the ARG are earlier versions of threats and the rules were clarified later for the Bestiary versions. I'm interested to know if this has been discussed before.

With Loyal Companion, thanks for pointing out the Stamina at Tier 2. That makes sense. And the bonuses to skills will only apply to skill rolls not passives. that fits the game mechanic. And yes the defense bonuses will not increase Stamina because with Tier 2 Loyal Companion, the Stamina is in no way tied to the creature's defenses.

I haven't looked at other Creatures because for my character the Horse was what was relevant, but I would not be surprised if similar questions arise. I'd love to see the reference for the Quality horse, and if there has been discussion on the ARG horses (and few traits) compared with the Bestiary horses (with more traits).

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:16 pm 
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Southernskies wrote:
Hood wrote:
The ability of the wolf/dog is not a general "grapple", it is a "grab", which has it's own special rules on P. 310.


Players wanting to use this ability should take careful note of how the attack works.

Grab attack using Bite at Speed 5 (which does no damage, as per the Grab Attack Option)
IF the attack hits, you can choose to immediately deal your Base Die in damage (NOT the full bite damage).

After that, normal grapple rules apply (so Pin, then Punish). A total of 15 ticks to do damage twice (but the target is in trouble at that point).

Its not the greatest ability, unless you are in position to take advantage of that initial Grab.


This is true, however, in many instances Hood has his opponent finished off before the dog gets to attack again. In any case, I view the main benefit of the dog as taking the opponent's attention, and giving Hood his wolf pack/advanced tactics bonuses. And once Dogmeat gets his advanced training he'll be able to do takedowns as well. But yes; the benefit of dogs/wolves is not damage/tick.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:34 pm 
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deluge wrote:
And the bonuses to skills will only apply to skill rolls not passives. that fits the game mechanic.


I still take issue with this. It sounds like this logic being applied is the logic of a player character adding talent bonuses to skill ranks. In the case of a loyal companion this is not the case; what you are doing is more akin to modifying a minion stat block.

I'm most familiar with the minion stat block for the War Dog on the bottom of ARPG P. 322. As you will see, the War Dog begins with +3 universal bonus, resulting in a passive 18 for listed skills and 15 for untrained skills. What the Loyal Companion advancement appears to do is change the +3 to a +4 universal bonus. Logically, the 18 listed passive should then change to a 19. The 15 untrained passive remains the same. Without exception, you will find that the listed passive in minion stat blocks results from the universal bonus plus the untrained passive, except in specific listed instances such as the Heavy Warhorse which begins with a boosted passive perception. The overwhelming majority of stat blocks in the bestiary are also constructed similarly (one notable exception is the Horned Jowl Ss'ressen on P. 25), but the construction mechanics in the back of the bestiary also support the logic I'm presenting here.

So failing a ruling that says otherwise, I don't see why the Loyal Companion skill increases should not affect passive skill values, as presented in construction mechanics in multiple books.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:03 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sorry guys, but this thread is Horse Talk. I want to discuss horse options. If you want to discuss other animals please start your own thread.

I need to get to the bottom of horses and horse options. Particularly the Quality Riding Horse which is common for quite a few backgrounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:56 am 
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deluge wrote:
Sorry guys, but this thread is Horse Talk. I want to discuss horse options. If you want to discuss other animals please start your own thread.

I need to get to the bottom of horses and horse options. Particularly the Quality Riding Horse which is common for quite a few backgrounds.


If you ever plan to take Loyal Companion with your horse, the above discussion is highly applicable.

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