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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:55 pm 

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Also, ranged should not match melee damage per tick as there is no risk. If the opponents can't get past your friends, you are just doing free damage with no risk.

The simplest way to do sustained damage per tick with a flintlock is to have multiple and don't reload them except between combats. This obviously has a significant up-front cost (though an Altherian Val could start with 2 pistols free and buy more for not too ridiculous a price).

I've thought about creating a marksman/triggermage but I prefer the melee play-style.

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:52 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Hood wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
Bows still benefit from Exceptional.

-Please explain, I'm interested.


Bows have a speed of 5(2) or 6(2) so Exceptional drops it to 4(2) or 5(2). Crossbows and flintlocks have a much faster attack speed (but slower reload) so don't end up benefiting from Exceptional (except flintlocks in the melee forms).

-Ahh, I neglected to review the Archery section, was only reviewing Marksman section, good point.

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Nierite wrote:
Actually, you can't "rune it down" to 3 Ticks. Please read the text of the Celerity Rune:

Forged in Magic, Volume 1, page 7 wrote:
Celerity
Description: This Rune allows you to move or attack
with incredible speed.
Wand: No effect.
Weapon: When a weapon with this Rune is used to
perform a Combat Maneuver you reduce the Recovery,
Speed or both (to a minimum of 3 Speed and 1 Recovery).
Note: If the weapon’s speed would drop below 3 add +1
damage instead


Please note it says COMBAT MANEUVER.

Arcanis The Roleplaying Game, page 310 wrote:
Combat Maneuvers (which consist of Weapon Tricks or Martial Maneuvers)


This means that you can only ever get your Gladius to Speed 3 by using a combat maneuver which has a speed of +0 (X), or with the Rapid Strike Weapon Trick.

You are correct that Guns and Crossbows cannot fire any faster than 2 ticks in the current rules set, but Exceptional provides additional Rune Slots compared to Fine or Good Quality which is nothing to sneeze at. In terms of Bows, Exceptional bows are no less powerful than any other weapon in terms of speed vs. damage. They do have a 2 tick reload, but there are Talents and Martial Techniques which ameliorate that rather short reload.

-Ah, that was not clear to me at first read, that the speed referred to the speed of the maneuver and not the weapon speed. In any case, the distinction is partially moot as most melee attacks will be using some kind of maneuver unless they are in recovery, so the benefit of speed reduction still applies, although the math changes depending on the maneuver.

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Don't worry about missing it, I did to until literally this last Origins when I reread the Runes to figure out which T.3 runes I wanted to get ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:53 pm 
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Re: Hat,

As far as damage/tick is concerned, your math is correct as of tick 1. If considering an average of 12 ticks, my math is correct:

d8+1 damage die x three attacks = 3x(4.5+1) = 16.5 average damage over 12 ticks

The only ranged weapon that comes close is the light crossbow, which gets to fire again on tick 11:

2d6+1 damage die x two attacks = 2(2x3.5)+2 = 16 average damage over 12 ticks

1. AR factor is a valid point, but not knowing your opponent, it is difficult to factor in. I would also offer that if you are going to burn bolts or blast powder shooting at an opponent, it's most likely going to be >=Elite level, and likely better armored and with higher avoidance, than the melee guys who have to wade through the minions and/or commons first.

2. Movement is also a very valid point. But again, assuming in a typical fight the melee folks have to soak up the minions/commons first, as often as not those guys are coming to you instead of you going to them. Particularly the minion packs who charge you to get in their extra damage before they wipe.

The benefits of bows you list are valid. But without context of all the benefits of various melee weapons, the argument is somewhat lopsided. For example, if I add wolf pack tactics and advanced tactics to my basic melee, my base damage goes up significantly, for a conditional modifier that is pretty easy to meet in typical combat scenarios.

I haven't done the addition, but certainly you must agree that more than the majority of available weapon tricks and martial techniques are for melee weapons, and some of the ones that apply to ranged weapons are also available for melee weapons as well, allowing your typical melee fighter greater flexibility in character design and combat options.

One non-tangible benefit not mentioned yet is that the greater numbers of die rolls you throw, the more likely you are to produce results close to the mean over time. While on the other hand, if you're throwing fewer die rolls over the same amount of time, your results are going to be more affected by any outlying results.

The other non-tangible factor not being considered here is that the faster I attack, the more quickly I can make my next decision/respond to the changing battlefield.

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Last edited by Hood on Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:55 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Also, ranged should not match melee damage per tick as there is no risk. If the opponents can't get past your friends, you are just doing free damage with no risk.

The simplest way to do sustained damage per tick with a flintlock is to have multiple and don't reload them except between combats. This obviously has a significant up-front cost (though an Altherian Val could start with 2 pistols free and buy more for not too ridiculous a price).

I've thought about creating a marksman/triggermage but I prefer the melee play-style.


I see your point, but to play infernal's advocate, if I'm sitting there with no armor and a big flintlock (or multiple flintlocks), I think that's making me a high priority for my GM and any of the opponents who also has ranged weapons or spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:06 pm 
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Some sort of ranged capacity is a must for all characters (even if they rarely use it).

Due to the way the skills work, you can 'make do' with only one melee skill (and use all the others at -5, or -3 with a Talent). You can't do the same with ranged.

Ranged (Marksmanship) is useful for several spells or casting talents, so its not unusual for ranks to be thrown at it (val with their free flintlocks usually have a rank as well). Unless you use a shield (and I see very few PCs that do), it would be useful for all PCs to carry a Heavy Crossbow, open with a volley and then change to melee/spells where they specialise. Even with no ranks, the Attribute die may explode for a hit.

For 2 ticks (+quickdraw or draw or Cautious Advance+draw), while the enemy are also flat-footed (for Combat Advantage!) that volley can efficiently clean out chaff or throw a wound or two on the bigger targets. (One reason its use by Minion level threats has been curtailed; see above BI comment).

The unmentioned advantage of Exceptional ranged weapons, is the Rune space. Better Runes require Better Weapons.
Sure, you could use that crappy inferior crossbow you picked up from the Milandisian peasant you slaughtered one time, but that is all it will ever be.

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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I disagree that "some sort of ranged combat is a must for all characters". It is definitely good to have but it is not a requirement. Having it will make some encounters much easier. Ss'kethis closest thing to ranged is Guarded Charge. G'hyu'thyh has a bola but his thrown ranks are about half of his melee.

I certainly haven't kept exact count but I think shields are pretty common (at least among melee characters).

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:32 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
I certainly haven't kept exact count but I think shields are pretty common (at least among melee characters).


Not around here; I have yet to encounter another shield user of any sort. The other Martials are all using 2h weapons. Well, that an Martials are fairly sparse to start with (lots of Experts and Arcane casters).

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 Post subject: Re: Exceptional Ranged Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Southernskies wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
I certainly haven't kept exact count but I think shields are pretty common (at least among melee characters).


Not around here; I have yet to encounter another shield user of any sort. The other Martials are all using 2h weapons. Well, that an Martials are fairly sparse to start with (lots of Experts and Arcane casters).


Interesting. Both of my characters are casters but primarily just for buffs.

Ss'kethis has a tower shield and tail bracer - he casts and then draws his tralian hammer if needed for the hard hits.

G'hyu'thyh has a small shield and Kio sword. With one with the blade, drawing is a free action so casting and then drawing isn't an issue.

I've made some characters that don't use shields but haven't played them much (except Horst who is now semi-retired).

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