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Background Talents
https://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1880		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Southernskies [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Background Talents
I just want to make sure the following hasn't been changed anywhere.

Pg.170 wrote:
Requirements
When a Talent is taken, you must meet all stated
requirements, except when the Talent is acquired through
an Archetype, Background, or Path. Some requirements will
have the following notations: (b) for Backgrounds, (ta) for
Talents, (pa) for Paths, and (a) for Archetypes.


Hero Creation (pg.94) doesn't note it. Also the example character chooses the background talent at Step 9.

Step 9 isn't a problem as long as pg.170 is still valid.
Author:  Hat [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
Southernskies wrote:
I just want to make sure the following hasn't been changed anywhere.

Pg.170 wrote:
Requirements
When a Talent is taken, you must meet all stated
requirements, except when the Talent is acquired through
an Archetype, Background, or Path. Some requirements will
have the following notations: (b) for Backgrounds, (ta) for
Talents, (pa) for Paths, and (a) for Archetypes.


Hero Creation (pg.94) doesn't note it. Also the example character chooses the background talent at Step 9.

Step 9 isn't a problem as long as pg.170 is still valid.


The problem with your question is that it's not clear what you're really asking. Based on our separate discussion, what I believe you're asking is the following:

If a Background gives a non-definitive Talent (choose any Combat, Learn Martial Technique etc.) are the requirements for whatever's selected waived?

Ex. Can a character with the Elder Sorcerer's Apprentice that can take "any one Combat Talent" use that to select Learn Martial Technique and select a Technique they don't meet the requirements for (such as a 6 Might and 3 ranks for MT: Sweeping Strike).

Looking at Step 9 on p. 95, I believe the answer's already present. It notes the following:

"You receive two additional Talents at this time, three if your character selected any Flaws. You may select any Talent for which you meet the prerequisites. (See Talents Page 170)"

It explicitly states "for which you meet the prerequisites." This is specific to Step 9. The note you reference above for p. 170 is the general case for talents, not the specific. In the Archetype section this is explicitly clarified as part of the errata:

Page: 92 (Clarification)
Step 2
Choose your Hero’s Archetype, change the 2nd paragraph
as follows; as shown in bold
From your Archetype you will gain one rank in all Trained skills gained under its heading. It will also provide you with starting weapon and armor proficiency Talents, as well as additional Talent(s) based upon which Archetype you choose, regardless of requirements with the exception of limited Talents, Talents above Tier I, and racial limitations. Lastly it will give you access to Additional Advancement Options above and beyond the general Advancement Options available to all characters.

There is no comparable section for background to provide that exception.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  Nierite [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
I'm pretty much on page with Paul here. Step 2 specifically says "may ignore prereqs" to me, but Step 9 says that you cannot. If a Background grants you a talent specifically that you wouldn't otherwise get, that is great, but the "Any talent" (not a specific thing) you must qualify for.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
Background talents do bypass requirements (page 170). A talent given by a background is finalized in step 9, but it's still given by a background. The "must meet perquisites" refers to the two (or three with a flaw) that you obtain in step 9.

John
Author:  wilcoxon [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
My reading is the same as Paul and Cody. You can ignore pre-reqs in step 2 and for specifically (by name) given talents but you must meet all pre-reqs for talents chosen in step 9 or when choosing "any xxx talent" (except during step 2).
Author:  wilcoxon [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
Harliquinn wrote:
Background talents do bypass requirements (page 170). A talent given by a background is finalized in step 9, but it's still given by a background. The "must meet perquisites" refers to the two (or three with a flaw) that you obtain in step 9.

John


Even ones that grant a choice (eg "any xxx talent")? Where is this stated in the rules or errata? If true, I likely need to rebuild a char or two to make use of the rule.
Author:  Hat [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
Harliquinn wrote:
Background talents do bypass requirements (page 170). A talent given by a background is finalized in step 9, but it's still given by a background. The "must meet perquisites" refers to the two (or three with a flaw) that you obtain in step 9.


The note about Background Talents bypassing requirements are to allow for Former Slave to grant "Lost in the Crowd" which otherwise requires Logic 5, Stealth and Streetwise as trained skills without needing those to be present.

Otherwise following that logic The Perfect Cut (Req: Hero Tier IV, Prowess and Insight 7, 14 ranks in any Melee skill) or a Tier V Martial Technique is a completely legitimate choice for one of those talents. This interpretation would be further reinforced by the explicit limiting of the Archetype talents to Tier I, no racial exceptions etc, while the any Background talents are not likewise limited.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
Paul
Then they need to clarify the same way they did with archetypes. However, right now as written, you ignore prerequisites given by background, it doesn't say ignore prerequisite given by Step 2 in the process. I would personally apply the same restriction as archetypes.

This also needs to be cleared up for Paths, as the loophole still exists there.

John
Author:  Southernskies [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
It would be easier to add the limitations to Page 170 than every separate occurance.

Suggested clean up:
Quote:
Requirements
When a Talent is taken, you must meet all stated requirements, except when the Talent is acquired through an Archetype, Background, or Path. Some requirements will have the following notations: (b) for Backgrounds, (ta) for Talents, (pa) for Paths, and (a) for Archetypes.
This does not allow you to bypass the Limited notation or Racial type. The Tiered type can still by bypassed if you meet all previous Tiers (but is still not available until you are the correct Tier).
Clarification: Talents that grant other psuedo-talents may change the available Tier. This most often occurs with the Learn Fighting Style talent.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Background Talents
Agreed, but the Archetype and Background sections in Hero Creation could stand to have the same text.

The rules and text around Talents given by Archetype and Backgrounds are identical. This is 5he main reason I view them as the same rule. They added clarifying errata for Archetypes and need to do the same for Backgrounds, because as written Background Talents allow the same shenanigans of bypassing Tier, Race, etc. as Archdtype Talents did pre-errata. Paths, if they are treated the same, need to be added to the Paths section and to Talent requirements section.

John
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