I'd like to summarize the options for easy reference and ruling by someone official. I am happy to edit this post until everyone agrees upon the intent of the options. The specific wording to implement in the errata can be determined after. At it's heart this discussion of what's intended to be allowed. It is very clear that both sides of the argument are entrenched and logical arguments are not swaying either side. I am breaking out Backgrounds from Paths in case the ruling is different for them. So, for the options:

Backgrounds
Option 1: Background talents that fall into "Choose any X talent" where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections function like the Archetype talent per the 4.3 Errata and have all requirements waived save the exceptions detailed therein. Specifically: "regardless of requirements with the exception of limited Talents, Talents above Tier I, and racial limitations."

Option 2: Background talents that fall into "Choose any X talent" where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections require the Hero to meet all listed prerequisites in order to take. The reference to ignoring prerequisites is specific to explicitly named talents such as Masterful Defense, Lost in the Crowd etc. The Hero must take a legally available talent when the talent choice is earned.

Paths
Option 1: Path talents that fall into "Choose any X talent" where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections function like the Archetype talent per the 4.3 Errata and have all requirements waived save the exceptions detailed therein. Specifically excluding limited Talents, Talents above the character's current Tier, and racial limitations.

Option 2: Path talents that fall into "Choose any X talent" where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections require the Hero to meet all listed prerequisites in order to take. The reference to ignoring prerequisites is specific to explicitly named talents such as Masterful Defense, Lost in the Crowd etc. The Hero must take a legally available talent when the talent choice is earned.

I invite both sides to participate in the word-smithing so that at the end of the day we're all comfortable accepting whatever ruling is made.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

For simplicity I think it should be option #1.

I've always believed this is true for archetypes & paths. (Tukufu benefits from picking up Sweeping Strike through Sword Sage's choose any MT). I wasn't aware that there were any similar options through Backgrounds. (And I'm not sure that I want to see a lot of these options)...but elder casters aren't that great mechanically. If the main issue is Elder Sor Apprentice I think that's fine.

And i like simplicity with rules that go across the board.

I've been reading it as option #2 (only archetype ignores pre-reqs for "any X talent").

I'm kind of mixed on how I think it should work. On the one hand, restricting it to archetype ignoring pre-reqs makes the archetype choice more important (my wife chose Expert for her Ssressen just so she could get Quick with Quickness of 3 - if background/path allowed the same thing, she likely would have looked for a different way to get it). On the other hand, it would allow more flexibility and may help make some backgrounds/paths more attractive (I haven't checked to see which ones give "any X talent").

Did I adequately capture the questions of intent around backgrounds and paths?

For reference, here's the list of backgrounds and paths impacted. I have included Learn Spell in the list as they occassionally have requirements, and there's also a limitation of needing to have the tradition already opened before you can add a spell in it. If there's general agreement that regardless of how you get Learn Spell that all limitations noted in the errata are in place, then they can be removed from the list below.

Backgrounds
Elder Sorcerer's Apprentice (Combat)
Former Secret Policeman (Skill) [Not legal for Living Arcanis play]
Former Slave (Skill)
Harvester (Combat AND Skill) [Not legal for Living Arcanis play]
Nomad (Combat)
Sanctorum Mage (Learn Spell)
Shaman Initiate (Combat)

Paths
Aspirant Knight (Learn Martial Technique)
Kio Duelist - Keeper of the High Blade (Learn Martial Technique)
Knight Errant (Combat)
Magi - Master (Learn Spell)
Psion - Master (Learn Spell)
Seasoned Veteran (Learn Martial Technique)
Sword Sage - Journeyman (Learn Spell)
Sword Sage - Master (Learn Martial Technique)
Wilder - Novice (Learn Spell)
Wilder - Master (Learn Spell)

As new material is released the lists will grow, so it's worth keeping that in mind.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I have always read it that the "ignore prerequisites" text refers only to those talents specifically offered at any step of the process - be it archetype, background, or path. Specific talents are those that are core to the concept of whatever selection you have.

For example, an arcanist HAS to have ASC or they're simply not an arcanist. However, by taking the archetype they don't have to have the prerequisite skill ranks or ability score, meaning they're a natural while someone else has to train and work hard for the ability.

However, nothing about being an expert says you have to be quick. You can be an expert and be as slow as a particularly stagnant brick. It's not inherent, therefore you have to meet the prerequisite.

We had this argument before about what prereqs were ignored ... which led to the errata for Archetypes (it's clear now an Expert CAN use one of the Skill Talents in the Archetype step to take Quick regardless of the PCs Quickness). But Backgrounds got left out of the erata.

For simplicity sake I think background talents should work the same way as archetypes and paths. I see that as the elegant solution. If not, then it's potentially a source of confusion. Or perhaps even an enforcement issue. Personally I don't audit characters unless something comes up at the table that is so "Outrageous" I just can't ignore it...so if a player has a different interpretation from me (and the list) I wouldn't likely know.

There is another type of choice.

I believe this also affects Backgrounds or Paths that offer a choice of specific Talents. For instance, if the Talent parts says "Wary, Quick, or Stealthy" and your character only qualifies for Wary and Quick, can you take Stealthy also? This is one reason I feel that Option #1 is best, as really "Any Combat Talent" is equivalent to a choice of 1 from 3 specific talents in terms of choice. Going with the argument of what is critical, a choice of 3 means that none of them are critical.

John

Option 1 with proviso.

With the combinations of Archetype, Background and Path, it is possible to get some tiered talents all the way to Tier III at Level 1.2 (Leadership is the one I have). If the Talent is not part of the advancement options for your Archetype the "Choose any 2 talents" becomes extremely busy.

As long as the previous tier requirements are met, it should still be possible to advance Tiered talents above your current tier (just not use them). That's why I worded my suggestion previously as I did.

ie: Martial (Leadership I), Former Tribune (Leadership II), 1.2 Path - Centurion (Leadership III).

Learn Martial Technique (ta) doesn't have any Tier issue, as the restriction is not a Requirement; its part of the Benefits.


Learn Spell (ta) is the same (no Tier requirement that can be bypassed):

Unless a Background or Path explicitly gives you Leadership, you couldn't pick Leadership (II) with a "Choose any Skill Talent" from Background or Path. You must meet Tier restrictions (if stated as the Archetype errata).

John

My opinion (as supported by my read of the rule) is that if you are given an option of 3 NAMED talents, you do not need to meet requirements. Unless that talent is named, you must meet the criteria because otherwise that is way too powerful IMHO.