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 Post subject: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Quote:
Arcane Spell Casting ... You may not, under any circumstances, acquire this source if you possess the Divine Spell Casting Talent. You may not under any circumstances acquire the Divine Spell Casting Talent.


Ok, that's pretty clear, but its possible to learn and cast Divine spells without having the Divine Spell Casting Talent, as Initiate Itinerant gives rudimentary prayers and from there you could take learn spell if you wanted more than one spell... .

This seems hinky to me, am I missing some rule somewhere that prevents this or should this be disallowed because its doing something that shouldn't be allowed?

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:26 pm 
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While flavour-wise, I think that all forms of Divine Spellcasting should not be allowed if you have Arcane Spellcasting (except for Psionics), I can see nothing in the rules which suggests you cannot get Rudementary Prayers, or take "Learn Spell" after that if you have an Arcane Source. As such, with the rules as written, you can become an Arcane Archetype, Initiate Itinerant, with Rudementary Spellcasting.

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Thematically the tenants of arcane spell casting (experimenting and manipulating the residual energy of creation) is incompatible with divine spell casting (placing faith and training in the memorization of specific "god given" formulas). Psionics being the exception since val have a seperate organ that apparently biologically harnesses ambient cosmic energy like the valinor. In my opinion you probably shouldn't do a end around with the talent Rudimentary Spellcasting.

That said as the rules are currently written you can currently do this.

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Personally I'm ok with the rules as written and the implications at least with an Arcane template adding Rudimentary Prayers. Thematically having a very devout caster to the point of becoming a Sword Saint would grant a single available Tier 1 prayer. Yes, they could take additional spells, but those would always be T1 and would require a separate talent each. It would work very well for an Arcane Caster who's a faithful follower of Sarish for example.

With a sweep of his...

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:16 pm 
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The only problem with this is that the Mother Church (and it's spawn the Milandric Orthodox Church)--overall--takes a rather dim view of those who manipulate the Arcanum through non-Theurgic means. Psionics they are okay with, because the Vals are of divine heritage, but Elder and Eldritch really rubs them the wrong way because it involves taking the powers of creation and wielding them outside the control of the Church. To that end, anyone doing that kind of build starts rubbing into 'minor heresy' territory.

Additionally, Henry has stated that the. . . psychology involved for the various Arcanum Sources basically precludes the acquiring any other source (but Psionics, which is more a natural skill than a learned talent):

- Theurgy requires you to remember spells and cants by rote, and requires absolute faith in the deity of the cant to cast. Anyone can do it, so long as they are sufficiently faithful. Should they ever lose faith in the Gods, they lose their powers.

- Thaumaturgy requires a post-graduate degree in arcane theory, being the equivalent of a classical composer who must understand every nuance of every note in their composition before they can complete their symphony. To have it any other way is madness.

- Eldritch magic is the improvised Jazz music of a one-instrument prodigy to Thaumaturgy's exacting Classical composer. They can both produce beautiful, wonderful music, but have almost opposite approaches to the end result.

- Primal Magic requires the subhorning of ones will to that of a more powerful being, with the reward for giving yourself to whatever powerful creature that they give you access to mighty powers. Should you ever dissociate yourself with that powerful being, the powers it granted you go with it.


That said, it likely isn't IMPOSSIBLE for you to have an Arcane caster who still worships the Gods even if the church (well, the human church, anyway) considers them sinful. In our world, there are homosexual people in our world who still consider themselves to be adherents to religious sects who are not cool with homosexuality. If there are those who can still find faith even with such a disconnect of doctrine to their choices/lifestyles, there are surely people with the Arcane Spark who worship the Gods and believe in them enough to want to join the church to make the possibly at least REASONABLE, if extraordinarily rare.

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
Hat wrote:
Personally I'm ok with the rules as written and the implications at least with an Arcane template adding Rudimentary Prayers. Thematically having a very devout caster to the point of becoming a Sword Saint would grant a single available Tier 1 prayer. Yes, they could take additional spells, but those would always be T1 and would require a separate talent each. It would work very well for an Arcane Caster who's a faithful follower of Sarish for example.

With a sweep of his...

Hat


Since Sarish is already Arcane and not Divine, and a wriggly basket of loopholes to begin with, I don't see nearly as much of a problem with this. In fact I think its a cool idea. I've wanted to find a way to combine the battle & blood traditions so I might even look at that.

On the other hand from a story perspective you should not be able to combine therugy with eldritch/elder/primal because the modes of casting are supposed to be mutually exclusive. I suspect that if you had an NPC character in the campaign try something like this they would either fail to access to Therugy, or go insane in some form (like eldritch casters who try to master elder magic).

As a judge, since it fits the rules as written, I certainly wouldn't ban either form of characters from my tables. But I regard the Arcane with Rudimentary (divine) Prayers concept overall as suspect.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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I'm personally fine with an errata that says you can't do it. I asked Pedro about it when we worked on the original rules because it didn't seem to fit and he was fine leaving it in.

With a sweep of his...

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:37 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm
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Rules as written, there is some ability to get a smattering of spells. Thematically, using Divine spells would seem like a straightjacket to an Elder or Eldritch caster.


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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:10 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1368
Paul,

Hat wrote:
I asked Pedro about it when we worked on the original rules because it didn't seem to fit and he was fine leaving it in.


If this is true, then Peter made an error.

It definitely isn't fine. The rules were designed to compliment the setting and the setting dictates that those who can cast Divine spells CANNOT cast Arcane and vice-versa.

I don't know how I can be clearer than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Creating a dual caster arcane divine ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:55 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
Thanks Henry, That clarification is very clear.

The simplest fix would be to add to Rudimentary Prayers and Divine spellcasting:
Quote:
Special: You may not, under any circumstances, acquire this source if you possess the ability to use an Arcane source other than Psionics

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