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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:46 pm 
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Nierite wrote:
Dante wrote:
In the Official FAQ Version 4.3, p.5, second question on the right column, the answer mentions gaining access to the Arcane Spell Casting or Divine Spell Casting talent via a Background, Path, or Archetype "without needing to meet the requirements." Does this answer mean that these Paths (e.g., Initiate Itinerant, Templar Itinerant), Backgrounds (e.g., Initiate of the Gods, Templar), etc. bypass the Spell Casting talents' listed prerequisites of Prestidigitation and skill ranks?

ASC and DSC are Limited Talents, which means that normal people cannot take them willy nilly. The paths and Background that you listed make DSC no longer limited to you. However, it does not grant you the talent, which means you still need to acquire the talent as per normal. The same is true with other Limited talents such as Saluwe's Embrace or Loyal Companion. While a val'Mehan can gain a Loyal companion infernal, it doesn't mean they can ignore the prereqs needed to 'upgrade' that infernal with the Loyal Companion talent.

Steve Wilcoxon's posted answer agrees with Cody's.

If you two are correct, I am concerned that some players may interpret the answer to the aforementioned question in the FAQ as indicating that all such Backgrounds, Paths, and Archetypes bypass the prerequisites. I see only Archetypes that explicitly bypass the prerequisites to grant directly the ASC or DSC talents. Perhaps the original answer meant that hypothetically such Backgrounds or Paths could exist. Does anyone else see any such Backgrounds or Paths?

The wording of the answer in the FAQ says, "[...] you can gain access [...]", which is the same wording as the Templar Itenerant Path: "[...] you instead gain access to [...]". I strongly suggest that the wording of the FAQ answer be changed to be more explicit that the prerequisites can be overridden only if the Background, Archetype, or Path directly grants the Talent.

The cost of adding spellcasting by means other than Archetype is high by requiring a Background or Path plus the ASC/DSC prerequisites, including having to take the Prestidigitation Talent, which has its own prerequisite. If a few players misunderstand that, their characters will be inappropriately (and illegitimately) more powerful than those of players who follow the rules.

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David Thomas Chappell
Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:52 pm 
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Dante wrote:
ARPG gives rules for Ranged Weapons, but thrown Melee Weapons seem less clear. In ARPG p. 233, Table 2-24 lists separate "Range Increments" and "Max. Range" for each ranged weapon, and p. 238 gives the rules for range. With a Melee Weapon with the Thrown quality (ARPG, p.240), is the listed range the increment or the maximum? If it is the increment, then what is the maximum range for those weapons?

Nierite wrote:
If it only lists a single range, that is it's maximum range and there are no increments. Basically, you can throw a dagger 30' without a die penalty, but you can't throw it any further than that.

The Thrown quality for a Dagger (ARPG, p.241) lists its range as 10', not 30'. Was that a typo in your post, Cody, or am I missing something?

In comparison with the dagger's listed range of 10', its Weapon Trick Twin Throw has a range of 30', and Steel Rain has a range of 20'. If Cody's answer is correct about the weapon's max range being the single range listed for the weapon (10'), that makes these tricks much more valuable.

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:26 am 
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Elder Sorcerer's Apprentice (ba) is a relevant example of a Background giving some choices (there are only 3 in total where you get to choose a talent).

As for Paths, there are over a dozen where ignoring pre-reqs occurs (depending upon stats and skill ranks). More if you pay no attention to building the character up.

Building a PC today, I've picked up LMT: Sweeping Strikes (ta) without meeting the Might 6 and 3 skill rank requirements.

Please make sure to read the FAQ/Errata document, as heavy discussion of many questions was used to build the current version (4.3)

The Expert (a) or Martial (a) with Divine Spell Casting I (ta) is a 'standard' build at creation (see Player Commons forum). It can also be done with Arcane Spell Casting I (Primal) for characters from the Hinterlands.

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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 1:04 am 
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The Background Awakened Scion (ARPG, pp.124-25) is clearly intended for vals with psionic abilities. However, that Background has no prerequisite of Arcane Spell Casting (Psionics) nor does it grant access to take Arcane Spell Casting (Psionics) by making it no longer a limited talent. Thus, a val who does not and will not ever learn psionics may take the Awakened Scion Background.

Is this intentional?

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:38 am 
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Dante wrote:
The Background Awakened Scion (ARPG, pp.124-25) is clearly intended for vals with psionic abilities. However, that Background has no prerequisite of Arcane Spell Casting (Psionics) nor does it grant access to take Arcane Spell Casting (Psionics) by making it no longer a limited talent. Thus, a val who does not and will not ever learn psionics may take the Awakened Scion Background.

Is this intentional?


The Background is there to represent strong potential in a Val, given by the Potent Blood which increases their Blood Rank. Therefore, any Val may take it whether they have or plan to have actual psionics. Working as intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:52 am 
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Can the Talent Prestidigitation be taken once and used to quality for (i.e., count as the prerequisite for) multiple Spell Casting Talents, or must it be taken once for each separate Spell Casting Talent?

I think this matters only for learning Arcane Spell Casting (Psionics) as well as another form of Arcane Spell Casting or Divine Spell Casting.

On one hand, the description of Prestidigitation says (ARPG, p.203), "choose a source of magic." On the other hand, I don't see anything in the rules or FAQ/Errata about Prestidigitation, ASC, or DSC that indicates needing to take it separately for each source of the Arcanum.

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:01 am 
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My understanding is that you only need Presti once.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:40 am 
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Dante wrote:
On one hand, the description of Prestidigitation says (ARPG, p.203), "choose a source of magic." On the other hand, I don't see anything in the rules or FAQ/Errata about Prestidigitation, ASC, or DSC that indicates needing to take it separately for each source of the Arcanum.


There is nothing written into the Prestidigitation (ta) which states it can be taken more than once. My understanding is that you take it once.

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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:01 am 
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As Acurrier stated. Unless the talent explicitly allows you to take it more than once (including "Tiered" header), you can't take it or receive it again.

Example: One build I worked on wound up with Campaigner three times; which did nothing as it wasn't tiered and couldn't be taken more than once.

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LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
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 Post subject: Re: Ask the Stat Monkey!
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:36 am 
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Can Sorcerer-Priests of Sarish take (and make use of) the Talents Blessed Devotions (p.73) and Personal Remnant (p.84) from the Codex of Heroes, substituting ASC for DSC and Arcanum (Sorcery) for Arcanum (Cants)?

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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