The purpose of the thread was not just to see how much damage is being dished out but how. If the uber combo requires starting with a 9 stat, 2 runes, a magic item, 3 martial techniques and 5 talents to pull off, then it's pretty much the definition of an outlier. If uber damage is being generated with 2 talents, 1 martial technique, a 7 stat to start, 1 fine rune and an easy to cast T1 or T2 spell, then it should get considered as fairly easy to achieve. I don't know what else to say to help alleviate concerns.



Not sure what the instance of Skyward was that you're referring to. If it showed that the spell as written was badly broken and being used in ways that it wasn't intended, then absolutely it should be fixed.

Pretty much anything the PCs can throw at the villains are things the PCs should expect to face. I'd rather make sure the rules are right before players are up in arms about tactics they themselves use.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I'm not saying that only PCs should be able to do things (though I don't see anything wrong with that as there is already plenty of other stuff that only NPCs can do). I'm more saying that whereas a group will very often only have 1 character capable of something, the NPCs will often have groups with multiples able to do that something or 1 NPC able to do it very well (eg adversary or even elite (still usually higher tier than the PCs)). Things that aren't broken when 1 character (PC or NPC) can do, can easily be broken if there are multiples or someone able to do it very well.

And how does a Fate point stop Diminish Senses (unless the to-hit roll was very close to the defense)?

Ranged NPCs are fine. Lots of ranged NPCs are broken. The one broken ranged encounter I've seen was at Origins BI last year. There were (iirc) something like 30 minion crossbowmen with high to-hit and dealing 12 damage per hit. At the table I was at, every PC except one dropped at least once (most 2-3 times) during the scene.

So far, I haven't seen any instances of any "broken" thing on the PC side leading to lots of new PCs built to do that thing (which is a big plus for Arcanis). That said, I'm relatively new to Arcanis (a little over 2 years) so it's possible it did happen before I started playing.

Those are certainly encounters to be very careful with. I don't have a huge problem if multiple focused combat build PCs makes what's intended as a really difficult encounter one that's simply moderately challenging. It's quite possible that a table that's that combat heavy will find other areas more challenging. I'd rather have ways to make the combat more challenging if those players really want their characters to be tested, but leave that as optional.



It was 19 points of damage per hit as they were wounding with regularity. They realized that was problematic and have adjusted accordingly.



Minor examples of that have gotten fixed. The +10 Stamina Perseverance rune getting clarified as Exceptional not Fine is a prime example. Tier 1 got pounded a lot during play testing. The law of unintended consequences usually kicks in as people start adding new capabilities and finding new combos. As additional supplements come out, that's always the risk. That said, characters are reaching the end of Tier 2 without much in the way of major issues which is a good sign.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I'll chime in here (finally). My primary, Decios, is a Martial and melee is his combat thing (mostly).

I've played about everything that is/was possible to play in the campaign thus far, and just hit Tier 3.1 after the BI at Arcanicon this month. I play with Tony S. a lot, and had the pleasure of sitting with Hat at Arcanicon BI tables, too.

He is a val'Dellenov from Balantica, Former Soldier, and uses the lancea (light spear). I picked the weapon because it fit the setting and the val'Dellenov background of the character.

I think the Lancea is the best weapon in the rules for a couple reasons.
First, it can be thrown from a decent distance, and with Mighty Thrown for an additional +5 static damage. Add an Air rune and it comes back the next tick of the clock.
Second, it is a speed 5 weapon, speed 4 if Exceptional. An Ex version costs 5Gc (only because of the rules for buying Ex, it should be 1.5 Gc!) so is very affordable. If you have a friend with the Celerity spell (which most everyone in Tier 3 is going to get) you can get this down to Sp 3.

Decios can deal a pretty good amount of damage, but its variable as to when and why. IMO, as Hat inquired about previously in this thread, it IS very reliant on a PC to have a bit of a 'set-up' to be able to be more/most combat effective. One needs solid attack bonuses, good static bonuses, and die bonuses.

At the risk of giving away too much here are some key components to Decios's build:

Pretty much max'd ranks of melee skill with the Lancea and having Weapon Mastery.
Static bonuses (or penalties) to attack come from Wolfpack Tactics, Forward Stance, Defensive Stance, Tactical Edge, Unbalancing Attack.
Static bonuses to damage come from Mighty Swing or Powerful Thrust, Benediction of the Gods (ally), a Fine (or better quality) weapon, Saluwe' rune (magic), Wolfpack Tactics (talent), and a Fervidite or Serrated spear (untyped).
Die bonuses (penalties) are the most difficult to find - Forward Stance, Defensive Stance, Unbalancing Attack.
He has a Might rune for a die bump to damage.

His usual attack sequence was something like:
Attack bonus of +10 to 12 range (with Forward Stance factored in).
Static damage of +3 to +14 range (depending on maneuvers, ally spells, and combat conditions).
Damage dice of +d8 lancea +d12(Mi) +d6 Forward Stance.
[the weapon is now d10 and Forward Stance d8, at T3]

Advanced or Basic weapon moves rarely increase the speed above +1 nor Recovery more than 4. So its pretty easy to do a Sp 4 attack at +12 with d8+d12+d6+11 for an average of about 26 points of damage, then follow up with a Sp 4 base attack (which includes an adjust [Quick!]) at +12 with d8+d12+d6+6 for an average damage of about 20 points, that also burns off the Recovery. Rinse and repeat. Roll well and its pretty regular to go over 30 on damage.

Do I think this is effective and powerful? I do. Do I think its 'broken' or 'gray' in any way" I do not.

I also caution people to not forget the power of exploding dice. I've seen many times where the baddies or PCs did north of 30 damage because one of their dice blew up 1-2 times. And at a d10 or d12 level it really skews things (not to mention the 2d6 bonus it seems every val'Tensen and val'Emman/Virdan runs around with).

Seems quite reasonable for the start of T3. In know my progression doesn't really hit its damage stride until around T2.4 (currently T1.8).

Once I hit T2 rune access and a couple of planned talents I expect to be doing (with my gladius/towershield/unarmed/Provocator Primus stance) Sp:3, +10, d8+(d10)+4 combined with Sweeping Strikes, Spinning Strikes, Unbalancing Attack and Disarms. (Very much a 'swiss army knife' for combat options).

I haven't taken a lot of the same damage boosting talents as your build as:
1. Talent starved to acquire full-Psionic casting;
2. Stacking issues with some of the options;
3. I'm focusing on my defences (currently Av:24, AR5; should be Av:27, AR7 by T2.4).

Only two of us in the home group have any real armour (everyone else has maybe AR:2), so I've drifted into the 'you shall not pass' role.

I'm curious, how will you hit Av 27 and AR 7 by T2.4? I'm sure it's possible but I'm looking at Av 24 AR 8 by around the same point (and I'm a Black Talon so AR isn't hard to get to AR 7 but at the expense of Avoidance).

AR 4 with a 0 Avoidance penalty is certainly possible with Advanced Armor Training and Exceptional heavy armor such as lorica segmentata. Add in Body of the Warrior and your AR goes to 5. Divine Caster with a Benediction of the Gods (Armor) of +2 would finish it to 7. Not doable alone, but if you travel with a caster, certainly within the realm of reason.

As for the Avoidance of 27, Prowess and Insight of 8 each means starting at 20, add 3 for a Tower Shield and +2 Defense T1 and T2 and you're there. As a psionic caster with an autocast of 23, you can get the same +3 shield bonus with Inertial Shield. Throw in an advancement for a +1 to Defense and it could be 28 or drop one of the stats back to 5. By T2 you could have another point on top of that for a 29. That's not even using martial maneuvers or weapon tricks.

We built my wife's dark-kin character as an avoidance monkey and she's at 26 at 1.5 (12 + 4 [8 Pr] + 3 [5 In] +1 [Masterful Defense] +1 Race [dark-kin] +2 to all Defenses +3 tower shield). Her AR is only 2 for Natural Armor, but that doesn't require any additional assistance.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Thanks. I always forget about Benediction boosting AR because (unless I'm wrong) Ss'ressen get screwed (being natural armor so Benediction would make the Ss'ressen Scale AR 3 which doesn't help since only 1 worn AR stacks with natural). I'd love to be wrong and Benediction would add AR for a Ss'ressen...

I wasn't really considering spells based on his wording for some reason. I do have Inertial Shield (and a tower shield) but will only have a 22 by 2.4 (23+ later in T2). There's no reason Inertial Shield won't stack with a shield (shield = equipment bonus, Inertial Shield = magic bonus).



That's quite an impressive Avoidance without magic.

Having to work it out (I wasn't even using Benediction):

Defences:
T1: 12+3(Pr)+3(In)+2(advancement)+3(tower shield)+1(Defence Rune) = Av:24
T2: 12+4(Pr)+3(In)+4(advancements)+3(tower shield)+1(Defence Rune)+3(Inertial Shield or Benediction:Shield) = Av: 30 (after casting)

AR:
T1: 4 (Lorica) +1 (Greaves of Upheaval) = AR:5
T2: 4 (Lorica) +1 (Unassailable Rune) +1 (Greaves of Upheaval) +1 (NAR from Body of the Warrior) +3 (Benediction:Armour) +1 (Shield Formation) = potentially AR:11 (after casting)

Benediction +3 AR (armour) is better due to its limitation and stacking issues. Some situational runes such as Sanctified can kick in (depending on stacking).

Rune space (and Item quality) is going to be an issue on the upgrade path (or spending the extra 2GC to shift the old ones elsewhere). 30GC for an Exceptional Tower Shield is peculation of Senate funds!

Thanks for providing the numbers. I can get higher AR - I forgot about Scales of the Dragon (although Scales is limited to +2 AR (or 4 AR if you have no natural armor and no worn armor) while Benediction is limited to +3 AR which seems very odd given that Benediction has a host of other uses as well).

I hear you on prohibitive costs. I need exceptional Tralian Hammer (30Gc), exceptional Tower Shield (30Gc), and exceptional Ss'ressen Scale (37.5Gc) not to mention a handful of runes (I have only 1 rune currently).