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 Post subject: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:50 pm 
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Reading from the talent description for Reluctant Stance in CoH p. 85, "Any melee attack upon you triggers a Free Strike regardless of the attack's outcome...you may take this Free Strike even while under the effects of a Push imposed upon you by someone else".

I'm not clear on whether a Free Strike taken in this manner results in a Push 'imposed upon you by someone else', or whether the normal rules for Free Strike push/recovery apply here? For example, if you're up against a minion gang who attack you on the same tick; do you get a Free Strike against each attack, or only against the first attack, because then your clock is pushed and you can no longer take another Free Strike until your recovery is finished?

I'm curious as to the ruling on this; since you are forgoing armor, and you can not actively attack in this stance, you are giving up a lot in order to be in this stance. If you only get a single free strike out of it at a time, it seems to me to not be worth the effort; 1v1 you'll do fine, but the minute you face >1 you're really squishy.

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:21 am 
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The language seems fairly clear. You get to attack the first minion. After that you are under your own push.

I agree, you give up a lot to be in reluctant stance. Sometimes it's worthwhile. Other times it isn't.

If you're going around unarmored just to use this stance I'd recheck the build....

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:22 am 

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The Talent has a Special (Restriction): You may not utilize this Stance while wearing any kind of armor, nor may you attack while in this Stance.

This entire Talent makes sense for the story. Reluctant Stance is Limited and can only be gained through the Order of the Blade Path. A Hurrian monk order that follows Hurrian's Defender aspect and master the use of the Broad Sword.
They shouldn't wear armor because they are monks. They can't attack while in Stance because they are not aggressors, they are defenders by nature.
The Talent allows you to attack someone after they declare an attack on you and if you kill them their attack does nothing.
Finally it states you can combine this Stance with Battle Trance which can be used to lower your Push caused by Free Strike to a minimum of 2 Ticks. That means a reactive Free Strike every 2 Ticks.
So if you are surrounded by anything but a mob of minions (a mob of minions attack on the same tick) then your are ok, because Push 2 is faster then any other attack. Regular attacks have a minimum of Speed 3.
If it's meant to lead to an image of one of these monks standing alone surrounded by minions and as each minion attacks it dies. Then perhaps they will add a Higher Tier benefit. They did it to some Talents between ARPG and Codex of Heroes.

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Thanks guys, I figured that's where this question was going to end up, but I wanted to check and make sure I wasn't missing anything.

I'm glad Vault brought up Battle Trance because that's where my next question was heading:

Can Battle Trance be combined with the effects of Opportunist to end up with an ultimate Push total of 1? Or with both Opportunist and Quick Reset to a total Push of 0? Or does this violate the stacking rules?

As far as the minion gang problem; can you use Opportunistic Positioning to avoid the remaining attacks? As is; the first minion attacks, you (hopefully) are successful with your free strike, and then incidental away before the remaining attacks are resolved?

As you all can probably tell, I'm dabbling at building a tertiary around the Reluctant Stance mechanic, and on the surface it looks like it could be a lot of fun; you Challenge an enemy, and then play merry hob with your free strikes when he tries to attack you. I just want to be clear on the rules so I know how the build actually operates.

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
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Bump.

I'd like some input on this as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
Battle Trance [Combat, Limited, Stance]
Benefit: Once per Scene you may slip into a Battle Trance as a Simple skill action. Once in this Stance you ignore all Wound penalties, gain a +3 to your Passive Perception and to all Mettle: Stand Firm Action Skill Rolls, and reduce the speed cost of any Free Strike by half of your Passive Insight to a minimum of Push 2.

Quote:
Quick Reset [Combat]
Requirements: Battle Trance (ta) or Stable Stance (ta)
Benefit: While in Battle Trance (ta) or Stable Stance (ta) you may, once per Scene, reduce the Push imposed by taking a Free Strike by half of your Passive Prowess, to a minimum of 1.
Special: The benefits of Quick Reset (ta) stack with the benefits of both Battle Trance (ta) and Stable Stance (ta).

Quote:
Opportunist [Combat]
Benefit: You preforming a Free Strike reduce your weapons Speed by 1 and gain a +2 bonus to hit.


They're all talents, so don't stack unless otherwise stated.
As Quick Reset (ta) can only be used once per Scene, you get ONE attack at Push:1, the rest will be at either the minimum Push:2 (Battle Trance) or Push:<weapon speed -1> (Opportunist).
As a weapon's speed can't be reduced below 3 before you apply Opportunist, the best you get is Push:2 most of the time (you can never get an attack down to Push:0).

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
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Not the read I have at all....

Broadsword base speed is +5
Exceptional Weapon -1
Opportunist -1
Adjusted Weapon speed =3

Then you apply push modifiers
Battle Trance -1 (for most pcs)

NET Freestrike = Speed 2 (+2 to hit)

What is key here is the Opportunist isn't affecting the push, instead it is affecting the weapon speed. Thus the two talents are not the same modifier. Still you can't bring the net down below two for more that twice in a scene. Quick Reset gets you one FS at Speed 1, while Tier Two Reluctant Stance gives you one FS at speed 0

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:41 pm 
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Same net result.

I was noting that you can't get the weapon speed below three *before* applying Opportunist. This is important for high speed weapons like daggers (Exceptional, Celerity, Rapid Strike etc; minimum speed is still 3 before you apply Opportunist).

Unbelievably, the Tralian Hammer is the best weapon for this combination.
Tralian Hammer: 7
Exceptional: -1
Opportunist: -1
Celerity: -1
Battle Trance: -2 or -3 (around T.4 or T.5 or NPCs)
= Push 2 free strikes; 1/combat at Push 1 (Quick Reset); 1/combat at Push 0 (T.2 Reluctant Stance)

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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:14 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
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Except it is a talent limited to Order of the Blade.

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Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Reluctant Stance
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:18 pm 
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RAW, nothing prevents using other weapons. Its a little sub-optimal as you can't use Body and Blade are One (ta) and need to train up an entirely separate weapon chain.

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