Well, I can't quote you the page number because my books are at home and I'm not. However one of the rules states that you can make an attack with a combat skill that you have no ranks in using your highest similar combat skill (melee or ranged) minus 5. So, for example, if I have 15 ranks in Balanced and no ranks in pole arms, I could attack with a light spear at +10. That all seems fine to me. Now, let's say that my character is somehow gifted with a +1 to my pole arms skill. (maybe due to a Path or some special cert or something.) Now what happens to that light spear attack? According to the letter of the rules, I believe that I could no longer apply the highest skill -5 rule. But I believe that according to the spirit of the rules, I should be able to do so, since this rule symbolizes general combat training and experience.

What are your thoughts? Was this just poorly worded, or is the caveat that this applies to untrained combat skills there for a reason that I just don't see?

Thanks,
Scott

My opinion: You can continue to use your 'default' of highest -5 for weapon attacks, and use your ranks for any talents, techniques, weapon tricks.

For example, you have +15 to Melee Balanced and +2 to Melee Polearm. This means you can use your spear at +10 (15-5), but you do not qualify for any of the spear's weapon tricks and many martial techniques that you may have with the spear.

That's my opinion as well. It does go against the letter of the rules, but I don't think it's unbalancing. I could see a possibility of someone trying to put 3 ranks in the skill just to cherry pick some weapon trick, but they're still attacking with that weapon at highest skill - 5, which is probably quite sub-par.

Scott

The passage you're looking for Scott is under the Melee skill. It reads:

"If you are using the Melee skill untrained, you may use your highest trained Melee skill instead, but suffer a -5 penalty to all attack rolls with the unfamiliar weapon.

For example, if you have 9 ranks in Melee (Balanced) and no ranks in any other Melee specialization, using any melee weapon that is not balanced is possible, but at a -5 penalty (thus gaining +4 to hit from your skill ranks in Melee (Balanced))."

A few notes.
1. It specifically states the skill must be untrained. Therefore it's possible to be better at hitting untrained with a skill you don't know than one you've trained in.
2. Because it's untrained you will not get any weapon tricks with the weapon
3. Only melee weapons can take advantage of this. There is no equivalent ability to use ranged weapons in this way.

So as an example, my character currently has 8 ranks in Melee (Balanced), 3 ranks in Melee (Pole-Arms) and 0 ranks in Melee (Unarmed). Currently I hit as well with an Unarmed attack as with an attack with a pole-arm. When my Melee (Balanced) goes up to 9, I'll actually hit better with the unarmed attack (9 - 5 = 4), but won't have the weapon tricks. I do have Tier I weapon tricks with pole-arms.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Thanks for the quote, Paul. So yes, by the letter of the rules, at +9 Balanced, you'd be better able to attack with a weapon that you have absolutely zero training in than one that you have some (3 ranks) training in. And while I'm perfectly willing to accept this (the rules are clear and unambiguous, here) it seems to me that it doesn't make a lot of sense. There is no justification for this rule in the rulebook. So we are left to extrapolate our own reasons. I justify this rule with the fact that you have a significant level of training in melee combat, albeit with a different weapon type. So you can use that knowledge to be somewhat competent in melee with another weapon of a different type. To use your example, you're better at attacking with an unarmed attack (a weapon with zero training) than you are with a pole arm (a weapon where you already have 3 ranks of training.) To further the hypothetical example, let's say that you buy Big Marcus Tyson a drink and he offers you a boxing lesson. You learn 1 rank in melee (unarmed). Suddenly your unarmed attacks just got worse than they were before you learned a thing or two about boxing.

This is my conundrum. The letter of the rules is quite clear. But with respect to the spirit of the rules, it seems to me that this highest-5 rule should be applied to trained skills as well. That is, you should be able to use highest-5 or your current ranks, whichever is higher. And I was wondering what other people thought about that. Personally, I think I'd like to see this as an errata. But I wanted to see other opinions as well.


Scott

Scott, personally I would go with the spirit of the rules and say that you're still limited to weapon tricks based on actual ranks, but that to hit modifiers could be by best -5 or -3 if you get the right talents. At a minimum you're almost 2 Tiers behind your best attack. Handy in a pinch, but not something you'd want to rely on. It's also very specific to melee weapons, not to ranged which I think helps with the balance aspect as well.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul