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Sorcerous Pacts
https://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1513		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  The Vault [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Sorcerous Pacts
I like this pact system. Take the Talent anywhere in Tier 2, summon the representative when you think the boon/spell will help, make sure to have the Gold you need for the boon/spell. If you use it great, if not that's ok too because you already have the gold to take Learn Exotic Spell at your next advancement. But I want to make sure I'm reading it correctly.

Perhaps someone can clarify it for me if I am misunderstanding something.

Step 1: Take the Talent you are associated with (The Ancient Pact with...)
Not hard you just have to be the matching Elorii, need the spell Elemental Guardian and be Tier 2 (note Tier is not a requirement, but there is only a Tier 2 benefit for the Talent so you could take it in Tier 1 but can't use it until Tier 2.)
Quote:
the Ancient Pact with the Sheykh of the Realm of the Burnished Flame [Exotic]

Requirement: Kelekene Elorii, must know Elemental Guardian (sp)

Benefit: Per Tier
Tier II: The Zaraddan commands the armies of the Shaitan in their ongoing wars of conquest. For a price, he will honor the bargain struck by Telas and grant the caster one of the following boons:



Step 2: Summon the Representative of the Being. This cost 25 Gold per Tier of the representative. Well we only have a Tier 2 representative so this should cost 50 Gold. (Until new representatives are created.)
With this step completed you may cast one of the boons/spells available to you. You must pay the Gold cost listed in the boon/spell. The option to cast this boon/spell lasts until the adventure you paid the 50 Gold in ends.
Quote:
To call upon a sorcerous pact, the arcane user must first enact a complex and time-consuming ritual. ... The cost of these materials is 25 Gold Imperials per Tier of the creature you wish to bargain with. Once paid, at any point in the future the caster may learn the Exotic Spell (by way of the Exotic Spell Talent) that summons the mighty entity to the caster’s service.
In addition, once the ritual is complete, the caster may cast the Exotic Spell once, without expending the feat. This casting must occur during the Adventure.


Step 3: You may now take Learn Exotic Spell Talent for each boon/spell separately without needing to recall the representative (i.e. pay the 50 Gold again). Also assuming you have the correct Tier of the Spell Casting Talent. Taking the Learn Exotic Spell Talent for these boons/spells costs you 10 Gold x Tier of boon/spell.
Quote:
The cost to learn the Exotic Spell (in addition to taking the Exotic Spell Talent) is 10 gold imperials or its equivalent multiplied by the Tier of the Spell. This cost is in addition to the original cost to contact the creature described above.


Once you have taken Learn Exotic Spell for the boon/spell, you may now cast it anytime, but you still must pay the Gold cost listed under Special Cost.

That's how I read everything. I just want to make sure I'm explaining it correctly to my players if anyone becomes interested.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
That seems really expensive (I have Sorcerous Pacts but haven't read it yet). If I'm following it right then that's 70 Gc to learn a single exotic T2 spell (and 20 Gc for any further exotic spells).

You can accumulate a fair bit of gold through the Crusade arc but you can't get anywhere close to 70 Gc (at least not without including special events that aren't available for download). Can you even accumulate 70 Gc between all of the downloadable modules?
Author:  The Vault [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
Actually Wilcoxon it's a bit more expensive.
The one representative we are given (for each element) has 2 Tier 2 boon/spells, 2 Tier 3 boon/spells and 2 Tier 5 boon/spells.
So on top of the 50Gc to summon the representative you'd need 200Gc (2 x 20 + 2 x 30 + 2 x 50) to learn all the Exotic spells.

Any feedback from people if I'm reading that right would be great.
Author:  mighty28 [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
I posted this on the Sorcerous Pacts thread in the other forum, but will add it here, also:

Everyone should also keep in mind that these are not "bread and butter" spells that get whipped out at every fight. They are designed from a story basis, not a mechanical cost/benefit analysis. They reflect a rare (and, i believe, prestigious) relationship with an Elemental Lord. These beings want their due for the benefits they give and probably dont want to be bugged each time an Elorii summoner has to fight a pack of rabid koala or other random mooks.
Author:  val Holryn [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
The Vault wrote:
Actually Wilcoxon it's a bit more expensive.
The one representative we are given (for each element) has 2 Tier 2 boon/spells, 2 Tier 3 boon/spells and 2 Tier 5 boon/spells.
So on top of the 50Gc to summon the representative you'd need 200Gc (2 x 20 + 2 x 30 + 2 x 50) to learn all the Exotic spells.

Any feedback from people if I'm reading that right would be great.


I liked the fluff and stories but agree that I lack confidence on how the mechanics are supposed to work.

I am unclear on step One.

It seems to me you need to shell out at each tier to make contact with the representative (50 gc for the Tier II guy, 75gc for the Tier III guy and then 125 gc for the tier 5 "boss") before taking talents and paying for spells. On the whole it's prohibitively expensive at Tier II. Maybe PCs will be wealthier in Tier III or maybe the frst part will be a reward in some module. OTOH read a different way, the text of SP could be that Telos (or whoever sets up the pact in the first place) effectively paid 125 gc with the various "Tier 5" bosses to allow others to use the pacts listed, so that later casters don't pay that part again...but I don't really think that's right.

I find the wording of the mechanics very opaque.

But since I don't play an elorii its also irrelevant to me. However much or little the pacts cost I won't be casting them in the LA campaign. :P Maybe we'll get Psionic or Sarishian Pacts at some point and the mechanics will be relevant to me.
Author:  Nierite [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
My read of how the spells work:

You must spend 25 Gc/Tier of the boon (ie: If you want to summon an Ice Giant of Gayal (T.2 summon), you need to spend 2x25 Gc = 50 Gc. Once you have spent this, you have a single 'free' (still needing the material components as detailed in the specific spell) use of this spell and access to take the spell as an Exotic Spell as if you were granted access to the spell by way of a Path, a campaign-certified scroll, etc.

As such, you may cast these spells in two different ways: You can spend tonnes of money, but not expend any valuable Talent-spaces, or you can save money (25 Gc/Tier) each time you cast the spell, but you must 'spend' talents to get these spells. You will still have to spend 10xTier Gc to CAST the spell (in the "Special Costs"), but it saves you a lot of money in the long run.

As Matt said, these spells are meant to be VERY limited use spells meant for "Oh my various gods, we are going to die!!" moments rather than 1/adventure sort of things. As such, it may be more cost effective (in various forms) to only keep the Gc's around and not 'waste' talents on what you will likely not use often. That said, a 70% monetary savings/spell is likely worth the spending of a few talents to some people. . .
Author:  The Vault [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
I have gone back to read the material and I found that I had missed information.
We are given more than one representative but the quotes were hidden between the boons.
It seems that the Water element has 3 representatives a Tier 2, Tier 3 and Tier 5.
Air only has Tier 2 and Tier 3. Earth also only has Tier 2 and Tier 3. Fire also only has a Tier 2 and Tier 3 representative. And Life has a Tier 2, 3 and 5 representative.

I first assumed all 6 boons for each element were given by 1 representative and PCI could/would create more in the future. Instead they have created multiple already.

Quote:
The Ancient Pact with the Mad King of the Crushing Deep [Exotic]

Requirement: Berokene Elorii, must know Elemental Guardian (sp)
Benefit: Per Tier
Tier II: One of the retainers of the Mad King is the Marshal of the Crashing Waves, commander of the elite guard known as the Warriors of the Crashing Waves. These masters-at-arms are tasked will protecting their sovereign from his rivals. The Marshal has the following Boons to grant the Summoner, for a price.

Tier III: The Vizier of the Mad King is arguably the second most powerful being in this Elemental Sphere and is tasked with carrying out the wishes and desires of its ruler. A potent sorcerer in his own right, the Vizier may grant the Summoner the use of one of his own personal cadre of Aquamancers or an Exotic spell unknown in the Mortal Realm.

Tier V: Mad though he might be, even the King of the Crushing Deep knows better than to intrude into the oceans of Yarris. As such, he will never manifest personally upon Arcanis for fear of offending the Lord of the Seas. Calling upon the Mad King should be done in the most
critical of times or in utter desperation, for his boons result in devastation on a massive scale
or a weapon that is just as equally liable to turn on the Summoner’s allies as his enemies.


This changes a few things from my original post. Each Pact Talent is a Tiered Talent. You'd have to take it multiple times to get the full benefit.

Water and Life you have to take 3 times. While Air, Earth and Fire only twice. It seems the Tier 3 representatives for Air, Earth and Fire grant both the Tier 3 and Tier 5 boons.

Also the cost to learn all the boons/spells has gone up. Because there are multiple representatives already you'd have to pay the 25Gc per tier of the representative a few times. You'd pay 50Gc for the Tier 2 representative and be able to learn his 2 boons. Then pay 75Gc for the Tier 3 representative and his learn his 2 or 4 boons. And if you are Water or Life you'd pay 125Gc for the Tier 5 representative and learn his 2 boons.

I thought about Nierite's idea that we had to summon the same representative multiple times to learn each boon that it could grant. But I think that would bring the total cost to learn everything too high. I feel that the intent is that we only need to summon each representative once.

I really like val Holyrn's idea that this type of magic could be expanded to Sarishians in future book releases. This Pact magic is a great way to bring in exotic spells and beings from other planes. Something that Sarishians could be very good at doing.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorcerous Pacts
The Vault wrote:
I thought about Nierite's idea that we had to summon the same representative multiple times to learn each boon that it could grant. But I think that would bring the total cost to learn everything too high. I feel that the intent is that we only need to summon each representative once.


I think the cost is already absurdly high. At least at Tier 2, this is an absurd level of cost (70Gc for a single exotic spell?!). We don't know what reasonable resources are for a Tier 3 or (especially) Tier 5 character yet so we can't say if those costs are reasonable (I'm guessing not).
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