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Casting with Subtlety Questions
https://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1225		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Hat [ Mon May 12, 2014 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Casting with Subtlety Questions
Ok, I've been considering playing an arcane caster and am looking at what I can do with casting with subtlety. Casting a spell without anyone noticing especially outside of combat works. Here are some questions though:

1. Can you use casting with subtlety during combat with an obvious effect spell to obscure who cast it? Example casting an elemental bolt of air.

2. Is there a way for a caster using discern residue or something similar to be able to determine who cast an active spell (binding or scene)?

3. Is there a way to tell what caused a particular effect?

4. Can you fake a rune - i.e. make it look like something, but not actually be a rune? If so, what's the cost or is that pretty much just RP?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue May 13, 2014 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
Hat wrote:
Ok, I've been considering playing an arcane caster and am looking at what I can do with casting with subtlety. Casting a spell without anyone noticing especially outside of combat works. Here are some questions though:

1. Can you use casting with subtlety during combat with an obvious effect spell to obscure who cast it? Example casting an elemental bolt of air.


This is the point of casting with subtlety; therefore, you can indeed use it during combat. The rules specify that all spells have obvious effects, even psionics and casting with subtlety allows you to mask that. If you're not being actively observed, it's a check vs. Passive Perceptions. I would say if you're in combat and enemies know that you are there, even if they aren't currently engaged with them, then you are actively being observed, and as per the rules, it becomes a contested roll of Stealth vs. Perception. The chronicler may assign bonuses or penalties based upon the situation.

Quote:
2. Is there a way for a caster using discern residue or something similar to be able to determine who cast an active spell (binding or scene)?


Not per the rules, so there shouldn't be a way to do this regularly in Campaign play. Home play you could assigned a way to do this. I've seen nothing that indicates there is any type of 'magical thread' back to the caster once a spell's been cast.

Quote:
3. Is there a way to tell what caused a particular effect?


This is what the Perception check (passive or active) is for. If the caster beats the passive Perception or active Perception of those observing, then they can't tell what caused the effect. If the spell is one that would require the caster to interact with something or someone to continue it or to change the effect, I would think another roll would be appropriate.

Quote:
4. Can you fake a rune - i.e. make it look like something, but not actually be a rune? If so, what's the cost or is that pretty much just RP?


I've found no rules on this. I would say some type of Forgery (Artisan/Appraise) check of an appropriate type could perhaps 'fake a rune' on an object. I would think anyone casting Discern Residue would know immediately it was fake, and there are 'detect Forgery' rolls on some Skills also. I would envision bonuses or penalties to the roll based upon the user's familiarity with runes.

John
Author:  SamhainIA [ Tue May 13, 2014 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
Harliquinn wrote:
Hat wrote:

Quote:
3. Is there a way to tell what caused a particular effect?


This is what the Perception check (passive or active) is for. If the caster beats the passive Perception or active Perception of those observing, then they can't tell what caused the effect. If the spell is one that would require the caster to interact with something or someone to continue it or to change the effect, I would think another roll would be appropriate.
/quote]


I think the rules for Arcanum : Sense Magic apply to this instead of perception, YMMV
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
I was merely stating that once the Subtlely Roll is made, if it bypassed the Perception of the observers there is no "second chance" to redetect the effect's origin. If that wasn't the intent of the question, my answer might be different.

John
Author:  EddieS [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
Hat wrote:
1. Can you use casting with subtlety during combat with an obvious effect spell to obscure who cast it? Example casting an elemental bolt of air.

Yes. But remember certain sources are more obvious than others. Elemental Bolt of Air will be much easier to pull off casting subtlety than say Elemental Bolt of Fire.

Hat wrote:
2. Is there a way for a caster using discern residue or something similar to be able to determine who cast an active spell (binding or scene)?

Who cast it? No. But sources can be determined if rolled well enough (example: Determining if spell was Binding, Instant, Elder, Primal, Psionic, etc, etc, etc).
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
EddieS wrote:
Hat wrote:
1. Can you use casting with subtlety during combat with an obvious effect spell to obscure who cast it? Example casting an elemental bolt of air.

Yes. But remember certain sources are more obvious than others. Elemental Bolt of Air will be much easier to pull off casting subtlety than say Elemental Bolt of Fire.


There is nothing in the rules to differentiate the Casting with Subtlety based upon source. Any changes would be a house rule.

John
Author:  EddieS [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
Harliquinn wrote:
There is nothing in the rules to differentiate the Casting with Subtlety based upon source. Any changes would be a house rule.

John


Pg. 349 Main Rule Book - "Bonuses and penalties are at the Chronicler's discretion.

Example: Hiding the creation of a Gladius of Light in a dark room would nearly impossible, but forming a dagger out of shadow with Manipulation of Shadow would be significantly easier ...."

If that's not an illustration of Casting subtlety based on sources, then I have no idea what is :lol:
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
To be fair, those are situational bonuses or penalties and not based on source alone. A gladiolus of light summoned in an area if bright light would be well disguised. Sources are not assigned bonuses or penalties by their nature but by the environment and circumstances in which they are used. Your example above merely said said fire was more obvious than air but there are circumstances in which either could garner a bonus or penalty.

John
Author:  SamhainIA [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
I really think this thread has become moribund with minutia.

Here is my interpretation of the rules: Yeah you can do things subtly, the significant price in CTN and speed means that (to me) its not intended to be used in combat all of the time. and if you do, It's then relegated to an opposed stealth roll to try to make it work.

in particular its some thing that would seriously hinder your character if you did it all of the time, but its possible to do if its warranted and your skilled enough
Author:  Hat [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Casting with Subtlety Questions
From my perspective casting with subtlety in combat has 2 possible uses.

1. conceal that a spell was even cast (manifesting a shadow dagger out of sight of folks)
2. conceal the identity of the caster of the spell - getting hit with an elemental bolt of fire is pretty obvious that a spell was cast, but if the bolt doesn't have to originate and fly in a line from the caster then that's useful as well.

Consider for example casting a spell subtly on a crowded street perhaps as part of an assassination attempt and then getting lost in the crowd. Sure a Harvester if they happen to be around might see the target getting hit with a powerful spell, but other than knowing someone was here the caster isn't at as much risk.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
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