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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts for the night
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
DeadZone wrote:
I agree with Paul, as well. And my suggestion would be to make the bonus XP no more than 25% - 30% of the total. And in addition, not every adventure should have it. Even though it's called, "bonus XP", if it begins to feel mandatory, it doesn't matter what you call it.

Lastly, the "bonus" stuff should not always be XP. Sometimes it should be information, nifty items, favors, etc. Any little extra "reward" for doing something can be reward enough. Heck, personally, I'd rather get the extra piece of lore or an unusual thingamajiggy than bonus XP any time. They add flavor and story. (Bonus XP just adds bigger, meaner monsters, next time.) But that's just me.

:)
Scott
I agree with Scott.


I will say this. If it all depends on what you say "extras" are. If extra's are from saving lives, or remember to lock a door behind you, things that would come naturally to heroes, but aren't necessary to get from point at to point be, those are fine things to attach "bonus" exp to. But Scott is right, anything that doesn't require a huge TN or a rare character choice won't feel like "bonus" exp to players, especially if they come up often. Anything that is available to everyone will just feel like regular exp that's hard to get.

The ridiculously high TN check, the oddity skill/talent, the sacrifice, etc. These things should only show up occasionally, otherwise people will start to feel like they are being penalized for not speaking every language, or being an artist, or being a psion, or generally not having every single thing covered at their table.

Stuff and story is better in my opinion than XP for having a character choice.

One thing I would like to see, is not having written XP penalties for taking the moral gray choice in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts for the night
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:18 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 104
First, I really love how this thread started. The idea that how a group accomplishes something is partially (to greater/lesser degree) determined by who they are, not by how high they can roll is great. Roleplaying well and expressing it to the NPCs should have as much an impact on the outcome as the dice roll. Putting in combats that anything less than a Tier V table can't win is good, too, so long as we have hints not to engage, or a chance to run away.

I play Arcanis for the stories. And all the above supports that. A lot of the posts resonate with this.

I do think that in every mod the PCs should be the heroes, and be able to accomplish the primary goals. That there can/should be secondary goals that not all groups can accomplish (e.g., no ss'ressen in the party, no member of the Orthodoxy) is fine, but the PCs should walk away feeling like they accomplished something. Sure, there can be doubts (gee, should we have release that valinor?), but that's part of the greyness we love about Arcanis.

But, then I read:
Njal Val'Assante wrote:
So how would you all feel about the following suggestion:

"Standard" XP for modules becomes about half to three fifths (125 to 150XP) what it is now, as a baseline. If you play the adventure "correctly" (that is, you follow the story to its conclusion), you get "full standard XP". Then there are additional things that can give more XP, up to double the "full standard", such as completing SS missions, accomplishing things unrelated to the core story, and generally treating adventures as actual living experiences for your character?



In theory, I like the idea of giving out extra XP and other rewards for specific achievements. E.g., accomplishing a SS mission.

But it's not clear to me what the goal of adding these extras is. What do you hope to accomplish? What behaviors do you want to promote, and which ones do you want to discourage with this change?

As others have already pointed out, better rewards (rather than XP) are cool (but not powerful) items, limited-use favors, stuff with great flavor, things that distinguish your PC from the rest of the pack.

Dropping the average XP awarded per mod to below 250 will be an issue. Taking 5 mods to go up one rank is very slow.

Some of my nagging concerns are:

1. It seems like the intent is that only certain PCs at a table would get the extras, not the entire table. Which may mean:

-- The distribution of these extras may trend towards what mod writers consider "cool" or "unusual" in a PC. Or the reverse, meaning that only PCs that fit the most common models will be able to gain extras. Won't be intentional, but it may result in some PCs never being able to gain any extra because of who they are, while others can do it regularly. I wouldn't want to see this happen.

-- Competition vs teamwork: My interpretation is that the extras will reward PCs that act for themselves, to accomplish goals that are unique to the PC/PC type or to their society, not for the group as a whole. E.g., hogging the role-playing spotlight, stepping over the other players/PCs to accomplish their SS mission, lying/cheating the others to make an event turn out the way they want, to get those extra XP. Shouldn't we be fostering teamwork rather than cutthroat competition?

2. The size of the XP extras worry me. The bigger they are, the more worrisome they are. The tier/rank range of PCs that've played all the same mods will widen. If one PC consistently accumulates the extras, while another one doesn't, the former will quickly surpass the latter. As little as 50 to 100 XP per mod will add up fast. Part of the fun of RPGs is seeing your PC advance. If I see other PCs advancing lots faster than mine when we've played the same mods, that's going to be discouraging.

3. SS-missions. I've got a basic problem with rewarding these too much. I love the idea of the SSs for the purpose of encouraging role-play. But adding rewards changes things. How do all those PCs that don't belong to a SS, but without whom the SS-member couldn't have accomplished the goal, get rewarded? Put another way, what about all those PCs that the SS-member stepped on to accomplish the mission and get those extra XP? If it happens a few too many times, it could sour players on the game.

4. Seems like rewarding "accomplishing things unrelated to the core story" will reward groups that do not play at conventions, but rather that play in a home setting. Why? I expect that accomplishing these extra things will take time and you won't have the time to do so at a con where there's a hard deadline for ending the mod. In a home setting, no one's going to quibble about taking a little longer.

5. I'd like to hear more what's meant by "actual living experiences" for a PC. I don't know what's intended here.

One of things that's great about Arcanis mods is how grey they are. Every decision has two (or more) valid options, and I can often argue either side successfully. But sometimes a PC ends up in a situation where they can't act as they would in real life. For example, the party ends up split about what to do in a tough situation. So, the group votes. It's 4 to 2 to go rescue the damsel in distress, no matter what the Inquisition wants, or something like that :-)

The point is even if my PC disagrees with the decision, she participates in the action. Who really wants the game to end after 1/2 hour? I also don't want to leave my friends in the lurch when they were counting on my PC as the party tank, or whatever. So if there are real-life-level consequences here -- like the PCs who rescue the damsel are now out of play because they're hunted by the Inquisition -- my PC is screwed. In real-life, she would've walked away from the situation. But because this is a game and we're here to have fun, she didn't.


Enough rambling for now …

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Anoush val'Mehan, Sarishan Binder (3.9)
Valadriel Maethirion, Kio Duelist (2.5)
Irena val'Virdan, Priestess of Nier (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts for the night
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
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Location: Portland OR
Let me start off by saying mod writing is an art, not a science. Writing any mod, much less a good one, is a LOT of hard work. Having written a half dozen myself I have a deep appreciation for the time any effort that goes into producing enough to keep a campaign running.

Okay, on to this thread: Let me start with questions. Anyone ever read a terrific novel that got turned into a lame movie? Or ... Anyone ever see a tie-in novelization of a movie that then won a major literary award? I'm guessing your answers are of course and no. All mediums of "art" (written, visual, performing etc) have strengths and weaknesses when it comes to conveying thoughts feelings and emotions ... and these strengths are different so there have always been problems converting from one medium to another. I think Empire Strikes Back is in the running for the greatest action movie of all time ... but my old copy of the novelization of Empire Strikes Back did not win a Hugo or Nebula (and I wouldn't mention it when talking about great sci-fi or fantasy novels).

I think of module writing as an art as well and from the viewpoint of making more "good art" I have the following thoughts about things said on this thread:

Tony wrote:
...snip... If we as authors truly write to the needs of the story, there are going to be places not everyone can get. A table with two Orthodoxy members may be able to talk to an NPC that won't talk to non-Orthodoxy members, while a table with no Orthodoxy members will not. A table without someone skilled at picking locks will not be able to get into some rooms without smashing down the door (and essentially advertising their skullduggery to other people at the party that evening. I'm looking at you, As Cold and Gray As Stone). But if we have to proceed on the feeling that everyone should be able to get everywhere and get everything... a lot of story opportunities become a lot less viable. ...snip...


Thought One: I've never played a good module that not only had a story at its heart, but that story also pulled me in and engaged me. In fact, the whole reason why I enjoy the Arcanis campaign is because all the hard points fit together to form a larger story that is built out of the smaller stories in a way that makes sense, and is aesthetically pleasing to me. I don't see how you could write a good mod without writing to the story.

Thought Two: Not all stories make for good roll-playing role-playing adventures. Module writers (and potential module writers) need to discriminate between ideas that work well in this medium from ones that don't. It's my opinion that there are story opportunities aren't viable inherently in a RPG format. Even if they might make a great book or movie. I've never enjoyed a module where my character was essentially a passive or a witness. If fairly logical/obvious courses of action are "disallowed" because it breaks the module...it really doesn't matter how "cool" anything (or everything) else is in a module ... I leave the slot disgruntled.

In a shared world campaign the core of any story has to work for the overwhelming majority of players. That unique thing that happens with the two Orthodoxy members has to be secondary to the core of the story. Or in the alternative has to be a special mission designed for Orthodoxy members (like the previous special mods for joining the Warrior of the Eternal Flame or Ehtzarta from the previous campaign). You could do more personal tailoring in a home campaign. A shared world campaign is not the same as a shared world campaign.

Deviknyte wrote:
...snip...The ridiculously high TN check, the oddity skill/talent, the sacrifice, etc. These things should only show up occasionally, otherwise people will start to feel like they are being penalized for not speaking every language, or being an artist, or being a psion, or generally not having every single thing covered at their table.
...snip...
One thing I would like to see, is not having written XP penalties for taking the moral gray choice in the end.


I have a mixed feeling about high TNs and obscure information. If you come across a painting and maybe there is a snippet of cool lore attached to it, I have several different responses. ONE) If the information is vital for the adventure to proceed then all tables need to get it one way or another regardless of what makes sense numbers-wise. If its tangential then I don't feel all (or even most) tables need to know. On the other (3rd?) hand, if you have a character who is a painter and has maxed out his ranks in painting over 3 Tiers of play, I don't think he or she should need to make a 50/50% roll...just give them the information. In this case passive ranks are a more useful gauge than a skill check.

My last thought it to echo agreement on the idea that what makes a "right" ending is often subjective in this campaign. And xp should try to reflect that. In the modules I have written, the one thing I think that runs through them all (from Living Death modules set in Victorian era Portland to LA modules in Sweet Savona) is that you are dumped in an "interesting" situation, nobody tells you exactly what to do, and your party needs to pick and choose what opportunities and choices make the most collective sense to you. I would like to see more soft points in this spirit.

I lied. I want my last thought to be the same as my first: Mod writing is an art, not a science. Writing any mod, much less a good one, is a LOT of hard work. Having written a half dozen myself I have a deep appreciation for the time any effort that goes into producing enough to keep a campaign running.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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