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 Post subject: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 983
Doubly Destructive Strike
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting, Melee (Balanced) or
(Unbalanced) +9
Category: Advanced (Double Stab + Vital Strike)
Attack: Avoidance (Pr)
Speed (Recovery): +1 (4)
Range: Melee
Effect: Weapon; you deal an additional weapon damage die, add your off-hand weapon’s base damage die and any additional damage from weapon runes.
Weapons: Must be wielding two weapons.

2 Gladius (1d8 with +3 static damage bonus) + Qu (d10) + Pr (d10)
3d8+(1d10)+6

With the benefits of Unbalancing Attack (from earlier in the combat) and Brittle Bones
3d8+(1d10)+(1d10)+6+1d10

Combined damage reference: viewtopic.php?p=3711#p3711

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.4
LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 2096
Location: Portland OR
Yes. That looks correct. Wasn't immediately sure of the +1(4) but both component pieces are +1(2) which is nice...

Not sure how practical it is to combine with MT: unbalancing attack since you either have to Fate your Recovery away or just wait for it. But yes, this is a nice combo and can build further with other options (not listed but also nice would be smite infidel).

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
Isn't it 1(3) then? Base of 1(2) plus the speed of the second to the recovery of the first?

Also, I took it as first tick action use unbalancing attack, then cast brittle bones on tick 6, which has the exact same casting time as the recovery from unbalancing attack, and then make the doubly destructive strike. You get your big attack in 10 ticks after the start of the fight and it should (all three attacks getting past defenses) do an average of 36 damage. It's about the same amount of damage per tick as just hacking away with the gladius, but by putting it all in one attack you do a lot better getting through armor and doing wounds, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1351
toodeep wrote:
Isn't it 1(3) then? Base of 1(2) plus the speed of the second to the recovery of the first?
<snip>


No, Speed or Recovery, whichever is higher.

From the current FAQ/Errata:
Speed & Recovery: Use the slowest maneuver’s Speed cost and apply the faster maneuver’s Speed or Recovery, whichever is higher, as additional Recovery. (p.22)


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1351
The maneuver itself seems fine. Your proposed sequence of attacks I think is more situational, though in part that also depends on whether you have other bonuses added in due to things like Wolf Pack Tactics, etc. I went ahead and did a full 12 tick sequence using the attack sequence you mentioned to set up the big attack as well as using your highlighted maneuver alternated with a basic attack. It assumes your gladius has an Exceptional Celerity rune on it to keep weapon speed plus maneuver to Speed 4, Recovery 4. If that's incorrect, you'd need to adjust for the slower overall speed. Both sequences would still be the same length as each uses 2 attacks with maneuvers, the difference being dividing the effects over 14 ticks rather than 12.

Unbalancing Attack --> Brittle Bones --> Doubly Destructive Strike
Tick 1 - Gladius (with Ex Celerity Rune) (Spd 4) + Unbalancing Attack (+1/4) -1 Spd on Maneuver for Rune
Final: Spd 4, Recovery 4, Damage 1d8 (1d10) +3 (Static) - 3 = 1d8 (1d10) = 10 damage (vs. Discipline)
Tick 5 - Cast Brittle Bones (Spd 4, Strain 1) (vs. Fortitude)
Tick 9 - Doubly Destructive Strike (Speed 4) + Maneuver (+1/4) - 1 Spd on Maneuver for Rune
Final: Spd 4, Recovery 4, Damage 3d8 (1d10 Qu or Mi) +6 + 1d10 (Pr) + 1d10 (Spell) = 36 damage (+2 vs. Avoidance)
Tick 1 - Next action (under 4 points recovery)

Damage over 12 ticks (2 damaging attacks):
vs. AR: 0 - 46, average damage per tick: 3.83
vs. AR: 1 - 44, average damage per tick: 3.67
vs. AR: 2 - 42, average damage per tick: 3.5
vs. AR: 3 - 40, average damage per tick: 3.33
vs. AR: 4 - 38, average damage per tick: 3.17
vs. AR: 5 - 36, average damage per tick: 3
vs. AR: 6 - 34, average damage per tick: 2.83
vs. AR: 7 - 32, average damage per tick: 2.67
vs. AR: 8 - 30, average damage per tick: 2.5

Advantages: single biggest attack (36 avg damage), higher chance for a Wound
Neutral: 3 exploding stat dice (equal)
Disadvantages: Must hit all 3 defenses in sequence, same target must be around for 8 ticks and remain within range

Alternating Doubly Destructive Strike and Basic attack
Tick 1 - Gladius (with Ex Celerity Rune) (Spd 4) Doubly Destructive Strike (+1/4) - 1 Spd on Maneuver for Rune
Final: Spd 4, Recovery 4, Damage 3d8 (1d10 Qu or Mi) + 3 = 22 damage (vs. Avoidance)
Tick 5 - Gladius (with Ex Celerity Rune) (Spd 4) Basic attack
Final: Spd 4, Damage 1d8 (1d10 Qu or Mi) +3 = 13
Tick 9 - Gladius (with Ex Celerity Rune) (Spd 4) Doubly Destructive Strike (+1/4) - 1 Spd on Maneuver for Rune
Final: Spd 4, Recovery 4, Damage 3d8 (1d10 Qu or Mi) + 3 = 22 damage (vs. Avoidance)
Tick 1 - Next action (under 4 points recovery)

Damage over 12 ticks (3 damaging attacks):
vs. AR: 0 - 57, average damage per tick: 4.75
vs. AR: 1 - 54, average damage per tick: 4.5
vs. AR: 2 - 51, average damage per tick: 4.25
vs. AR: 3 - 48, average damage per tick: 4
vs. AR: 4 - 45, average damage per tick: 3.75
vs. AR: 5 - 42, average damage per tick: 3.5
vs. AR: 6 - 39, average damage per tick: 3.25
vs. AR: 7 - 36, average damage per tick: 3
vs. AR: 8 - 33, average damage per tick: 2.75

Advantages: Higher total damage, single defense attacked (avoidance), flexible targets
Neutral: 3 exploding stat dice (equal)
Disadvantage: unlikely to Wound

It's fair to note that tick efficiency is by no means the driving goal, and it's often fun just to do cool things. It's been a while since I've had an excuse to do an analysis, so thanks for that. :)

For what it's worth, total damage equalizes between the two approaches at AR 11 at 24 points of damage per sequence.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
dang it, I even checked the errata on page 9 where it says it discusses maneuvers, but it doesn't mention that tidbit until much deeper in the errata. Talk about complicated. Thank you for correcting that.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Combat Manoeuvre rules check
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 983
My expected sequence is:
1. Unbalancing Attack + Sweeping Strike
2. do a non-attack (such as Leadership, buff spell) or Basic Attack (with Unbalance) against a secondary target to bleed off Recovery.
3. hope another Hero casts Brittle Bones or Talent for bonus damage
4. Unleash hell for a Wound on the primary target.

Our table doesn't yet have a reliable method of doing Wounds to T3/4/5 Adversaries.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.4
LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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