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 Post subject: Style Feats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:18 pm
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Hi Stat Monkey,

I was looking over the Arcanis Primer and love the new fighter tactician archetype. However, I do see a problem with changing a lot of the "fighter" type feats from the players handbook into "style" feats. The Primer states, "You may only utilize one stance feat at a time. You must use a bonus action to enter a stance and you can switch stances as a bonus action." Feats are at a huge premium in 5E. Most classes only get five Ability Score Increases/Feats, with the fighter class getting an extra two. This means that most players will use two of those increases to bump up their main ability score, and perhaps a third to bump up their main secondary ability score. That leaves only two or three increases available for feats, thus making them so valuable, and hence so powerful in 5E. Compound that with the fact that it also requires one of those increases to improve a character's Bloodline and you are introducing feats with up to three ranks in them, it makes those Ability Score Increase slots so very very precious. That brings me to my point: the stance feats actually hurt the fighter types because they cannot use two of them at the same time. A lot of players use the Greater Weapon/Polearm Master or Polearm Master/Sentinel combo to good effect, just to name a few combos. With the Primer rules as they are now, I can't see any player ever picking two stance feats, it just would not make any sense. It also makes it very difficult for a player to get all three ranks in one style feat. Obviously, players will have a tough choice to begin with: emphasize ability scores, feats, or bloodlines... or a little of each, but fighter types should not be penalized for taking two feats that work well together. Third Edition let classes have lots of feats, especially the fighter, and there were hundreds of feats to chose from. 5E is not like that at all.
Example: Take any Elorii or Val from the primer and give them the Holy Champion class (because their should be Holy Champions for them all.) It would require three Ability Score increases to get to a Strength of 20. That leaves two. If you take two stance feats, you can't use them at the same time, so no one will probably go that route. You can't get all three ranks in one school or stance feat. And you have less options if you increase your Bloodrank.
I like the idea of the schools and stance feats, I just don't feel the stance feats can't be used at the same time. Perhaps some of the archetypes can get bonus feats or schools of fighting.


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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:58 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
There are not a lot of feat slots, and plenty of cool feats to take.

It is true that as written (at the moment) we will not see Great Weapon Fighting/Polearm masters in the Living Arcanis campaign because they are both "styles" of fighting and you have to be in one style or another (never both). Is that really a problem?

Obviously there are some players who will want these combos. Either because of using them in a previous character in a different campaign. Or because they look "sexy" together.

I'm not totally unsympathetic, but I also don't think its a big deal.

Arcanis has never been a "plain vanilla" setting where everything from the D&D world/rules set finds a home. I'd really like to play a 5E Illusionist ... but the PHB wizard options have been eliminated. Should we be campaigning for their reintroduction too? I think not.

There are two trade offs for the Arcanis restrictions.

(1) The world has greater verisimilitude. Arcanis feels like ... Arcanis! Its not a "generic" setting.

(2) Unique Arcanis options. Players are NOT going to be starved of other choices. That's true for fighters types with the coming Fighting Schools and for caster types as well with new options (elemental sorcerous bloodlines for elorii, Eldritch and Elder traditions for wizards, new feats ... etc etc).

I have faith that people who want to play a big fighter types with a pole arms are going to find feats and combos worth having.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:24 pm 
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val Holryn wrote:
It is true that as written (at the moment) we will not see Great Weapon Fighting/Polearm masters in the Living Arcanis campaign because they are both "styles" of fighting and you have to be in one style or another (never both). Is that really a problem?


"great weapon fighting" isn't affect by Stance rules (as a Fighter fighting style option).

Great Weapon Master is the feat; and I also don't see an issue with the Feats being stances and exclusive to each other.

GW Master/Polearm Master with +10 damage on attacks of opportunity? I really don't want to be on the end of NPCs with that combo.


I'm currently working out if having Twin Blades + Shield Master (by around 8th level) gives me the flexibility I want without too many drawbacks. Twin Blades + twf is good, dueling + Shield Master is also good; can't do both as I can only take 1 fighting style option at 1st level (not going Champion for a second style).
Probably going to go middle ground and take the defense style as it benefits both Feat options.

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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:42 pm 
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keep in mind that core feats will go away once we have the core book in the campaign

And I'm not even allowed to reference them in any of our printed products.

when you take two tiers of a fighting style is like picking two feats that work well together, each fighting style is designed to be a "complete" system.

Yes you can always choose to study 1 rank of a school and another rank from another school but (like in the princess bride) you cant really mix them together (stances, weapon grips change..)

everyone agrees that some combos in 5e are cracked because they are "no brainers" and that should be a red flag.

I had someone ask me why I would ever do a sword and board controller when a pole-arm, great weapon master/sentinel Como was clearly superior in every way... total red flag

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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:32 pm
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PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
keep in mind that core feats will go away once we have the core book in the campaign

And I'm not even allowed to reference them in any of our printed products.



Are you saying that core feats will go away for writers or for players as well? Will you have to make a replacement for armor proficiency feats and such?


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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:07 am 
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Hawk Knight wrote:
PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
keep in mind that core feats will go away once we have the core book in the campaign

And I'm not even allowed to reference them in any of our printed products.



Are you saying that core feats will go away for writers or for players as well? Will you have to make a replacement for armor proficiency feats and such?


Correct and I already have

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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
PCI Stat Monkey wrote:
Hawk Knight wrote:
Are you saying that core feats will go away for writers or for players as well? Will you have to make a replacement for armor proficiency feats and such?


Correct and I already have


::blink blink:: I'm buying the book and supporting PCI regardless. But I thought the major reason for doing a 5E version of the campaign world was to bring in new players to Arcanis. Are you really saying people won't be able to build a character out of the PHB (even with restricted choices) to play in the campaign?

I am talking with local game stores about running 5E Arcanis. But if this is true then I'll wait. I don't want to deal with a conversion.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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Hello Eric,

When the Arcanis 5E Core book becomes available next year, people will need to stop using the 5th Edition Core Books of the World's Most Popular Fantasy RPG.

Until then, as it says in the campaign documentation, they can use said Core Books in conjunction with the Free Arcanis Primer, as stated in the Living Arcanis Campaign Document.

Yes, the OGL License is that stringent and I have to choose my words carefully to avoid any issues with WotC.

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Henry Lopez
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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:50 am 
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Location: Portland OR
That's good to have clarified.

We ran the first local table of 5E Arcanis during a GAMESTORM. New people who hadn't heard of Arcanis. Incorrectly I was telling people the Primer options would remain. I'll definitely have to stop saying that.

I'm sorry to hear that WotC and the OGL are so restrictive for PCI.

I'll wait till next year to make efforts to run the 5E mods locally.

We're down to about 8 players in the Portland Arcanis group and I was interested in seeing if 5E would get off the ground and build interest in Arcanis. In the hopes a rising tide lifts all ships.
But out of our eight A:RPG players I got to hear arguments from two who wanted to do the level bump to Tier 3 for the mods at GAMESTORM. I hate being the heavy who has to say no and it was/is frustrating arguing with friends rather than rolling dice. I don't know if converting from the Primer to the Arcanis book would be a big deal locally or not, but I'd rather just wait and dodge the potential issue.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Style Feats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:46 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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I'm not sure I follow you.

The primer and the information in the Primer are good for quite a while.

It states in the Primer that once the Core book is released, and by releaeed, I mean available through FLGS, which I estimate to be around August 2018, THEN the rules shift completely to the Core Book. We'll keep the Primer available for new players for free, but we'll update what we can.

Also, to be clear, the OGL is restrictive to all third party publishers,not just PCI.

SO if you want to wait a year and a half to get the people to try out the game, that's up to you.

I would simply be up front and say that the rules in the Primer will be in effect for a while and that they'll need to rebuild their characters about a year and some from now.

The purpose of the Primer is to get people to try the setting without plunking down cash. If they like it, hopefully they'll buy the book. If they don't no money was spent.

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Henry Lopez
President
PCI


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